Help required for building Billings Bluenose II “600”

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Help required for building Billings Bluenose II “600”

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25 December 2017 at 09:06 #2745
John Arnold 3
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@johnarnold3
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25 December 2017 at 09:06 #74642
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Hello,

This is my very first boat from a kit.

Firstly I find the building instruction book not very helpful and appears to assume the reader knows a lot more than the book covers.

I have completed the building of the hull and am now attempting the attach the railings along the side and it appears the timber strips supplied are about half as thick as they should be (according to the list of parts in the book).

Does anyone know anyone who has built this boat from a kit preferably a Billings kit?

If not does anyone know of another online forum I could try.

Thanks

John
25 December 2017 at 09:53 #74644
Empire Parkstone
Participant
@empireparkstone
Tried this?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=building+the+bilings+bluenose&oq=building+the+bilings+bluenose&aqs=chrome..69i57.24492j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Edited By Empire Parkstone on 25/12/2017 09:56:33

Edited By Colin Bishop on 25/12/2017 10:13:04
25 December 2017 at 10:33 #74645
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Thanks for your reply.

I had 'Googled' before but not got as many 'hits' as the url you gave does.

I got very limited 'help' by way of photos of construction which helps me work out what to do in places.

One 'hit' had the following (regarding the kit I have Billings Bluenose II "600" –

Although complete plans and instructions are included, the limited English instructions provided require critical thinking and some modification as needed. This is not a build by numbers kit, and is not for everyone. Additional technique books, and or access to the advice of an experienced wood modeler or wood model club is recommended.

I think that says it all. I have been frustrated by the instructions from day one and would never recommend Billings boat kits to anyone unless they were an expert, and then an expert might also get frustrated.

It is all the more frustrating when 4 strips of supplied pine measure half the thickness of what the instruction book lists and therefore they will not align with other parts. I will have to resort to either trying to source some balsa wood (guess that doesn't matter that it isn't pine as it will be painted) to replace the incorrect thickness pine supplied and/or the application of some filler/wood putty to build up the thickness.

The 'transom' board also did not seem to be as high as it should be.

I will 'press on' and make adjustments where needed. I may not end up with the model looking exactly like the original but only I will probably know that.

Regards

John
25 December 2017 at 11:05 #74646
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
John

Some model boat kits, particularly for working models, are noted for their very complete and detailed instructions. I think it's safe to say that Billings are not! I think the problem is with the appearance of the finished box-top item, which has probably been made by a professional who made few notes as to how it was done. The beginner is hoodwinked into thinking it will like a plastic kit, with little to do except glue and paint.

Your last sentence is heartening in that you have realised that you're not up to the same skill level as the guy who built the one in the photos. As long as you are happy that you've done the best you can with this kit then all of the little errors and iffy bits will serve to inform and improve your skills for the next model. You might also be a bit more critical when examining the kit before parting with your cash!

Dave M
25 December 2017 at 11:48 #74647
neil hp
Participant
@neilhp
I cut my teath with kits on the billing Bluenose and agree, the instructions were rubbish, so ere the timbers, so were the fittings, etc etc, lol………I struggled on and eventually made it a free sailing model with a drop keel………it was ok but I learned a great deal about building models by building that model.

I also find, to their credit, they do do interesting and different low volume purchase boats that other kit companies wouldn't touch because of volume sold.
25 December 2017 at 12:01 #74648
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Thanks Dave,

Unfortunately when you purchase a kit online you don't have the 'luxury' of "examining the kit before parting with your cash".

It is my first timber (kit) boat kit and I really did think that it would have had much more detailed instructions leaving little to the imagination.

In hindsight I should have Googled the instruction manual (which is available online) and looked at it before ordering. Oh well I learn from my mistakes.

Not sure if I will ever build another kit boat as I just wanted a model of a sailing boat/ship to display in my house and particularly liked the 'lines' of the Bluenose and had seen the real thing a few years ago when touring Nova Scotia.BUT if I do I will steer clear of Billings now from experience and what you and others have said.

I started this thread after becoming exasperated with the lack of instructions and especially over the fact the the deck railings are supposed to be added using supplied 1x4x450mm pine and what is supplied is 0.5x4x450mm which is too thin to match adjacent pieces on the bow and stern. After doing a lot of thinking I might use some of the left over 1x3x450mm strips instead of the required 1x4x450mm strips for the railing. Who except for me will know that the railing looks a little narrow.

John
25 December 2017 at 23:47 #74649
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
I wished I had researched this kit by joining this forum and finding out more about this kit before I bought it.

I naively thought that all would be good and the instructions would be adequate.

I just worked out that I need to somehow determine how long the bowsprit projects from the bow as there isn't even a word about mounting it and the 'list of items' describes it as being 100mm long and the actual piece is 130mm. May (BIG maybe) it projects 100mm and the other 35mm is how much is on the deck (glued).

It also doesn't describe how and exactly where to install the 'chain plates' (how they are described in the list of items/hardware).

I could go on but its 'depressing me'.

I will 'forge on' and take as much care as possible and make the fittings as per photos/videos I have viewed on this model (the "600" 1/100 scale) and others. Also use wood putty to 'fix' things where necessary.

I hope that anyone else contemplating buying this kit reads all these postings for this thread.Problem is if you want to build the Bluenose II I have not found any kits other than by Billings.

I am off to me local hardware to purchase a sheet of 1.5mm thick sheet balsa wood and I will cut strips 4mm wide to replace the incorrect 0.5mm thick ones supplied.
25 January 2018 at 23:02 #75389
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Neil

I am hoping you see this.

Firstly I chose the Billings brand Bluenose II from lack of knowledge on boat building and having no idea if it was ok or not – I had always wanted a model of a sailing ship/boat and saw the kit listed on Ebay. Also because of it's scale and resulting overall size as I am limited with space to display it. I have since found other brands which have far better instructions etc but usually they are too large anyway eg 1:64 scale instead of 1:100.

Now I am hoping you can help with a minor part of the model. And it's the rigging of the bowsprit to the hull. I cannot find anything in the instruction manual or looking at other built models on the internet.

As this is my very first built I really don't have a clue if the supplied thread or wire should be used and how to secure it to the front of the hull. The pictures in the instruction manual show it to be quite thick so maybe use some wire. Can you advise please. Maybe its using the 'eye bolts' to secure to the hull. They are extremely small. What did you use?

Thanks

John
26 January 2018 at 06:30 #75390
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
John,

If you compare the photos of the model in the instructions with this one of the real thing (**LINK**) you should, I think, get a pretty good understanding of how the bowsprit is rigged.

Mattias
26 January 2018 at 06:57 #75391
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Thanks Mattias,

I wasn't concerned so much as to confirm my thoughts that some of the supplied wire is used for the rigging (not the supplied thread which imitates rope) and also to confirm my thoughts that one of the many supplied EYE BOLTS is fixed to the front of the hull at or near the water line (they are extremely small and made from extremely thin (possibly only 0.3mm) wire. The supplied instruction manual does NOT mention anything in the words or diagrams – it are really dreadful and a lot seems to be left to the builder to work out for themselves. Never another Billings boat kit!
26 January 2018 at 08:15 #75394
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
John,

Do you mean wire as in metal wire? If so, what metal?

But yes, you are right to think that there should be an eyebolt down on the stem; actually, judging from that photo to which I linked, there should even be two, as the jib boom stay is doubled.

Mattias
26 January 2018 at 09:56 #75398
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Mattias

IT sure looks like that. And yes metal wire (supplied). There are two straight pieces and a coil. I am thinking use some of the coil of wire as the ends will need to be twisted around any eyebolt.

The more I look and ponder the more things seem to work out.
26 January 2018 at 10:15 #75401
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
John,

I would be wary of that! Of course you can rig with wire, but from all the photos I've now looked at of the original, she doesn't seem to have wire rigging, and if the wire is copper or brass you would also have to either chemically blacken it or paint it, which would not necessarily look good.

I suspect from the instructions that the wire is intended for stropping the deadeayes and attaching them to the chains …

If I were you, I would go with rigging thread instead. Obviously, at 1:100, you won't be able to do any eye splices, but you can a very neat look by taking the end through the eyebolt, doubling it back on itself, and keeping the loop temporarily closed with a small piece of masking tape. You then keep the whole length stretched, either by taping it to the top of the jib boom, or by tying a small weight of some kind to the end, and letting it hang off the table or the edge of a block of wood or something like that.

You then get some very thin sewing thread or embroidery silk (the thinnest you can find) in the same colour as the rigging thread, and whip it around the loop some ten or twelve times. It's very easy to do: you start close to the eyebolt with a double hitch, and then just wind it around ten or twelve times, and then tie off with two single hitches; you then brush some watered-down wood glue on it all, and after the glue has dried (30 minutes or so) you snip off any loose ends. Dead eays, and looks very neat and "made", and much better than just tying a simple knot around the deadeye. See this page (**LINK**) of my Moonbeam build for some examples (at a much larger scale, so more details in the form of thimbles and shackles, but the principle of serving is the same), or this one: **LINK**.

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 26/01/2018 10:16:14
26 January 2018 at 10:25 #75402
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Good point Mattias (using thread to rig the bowsprit to hull). And there will be no splicing anywhere on my model . Using thin sewing thread wrapped around the rigging to secure the end sounds a great idea. You should write a book on how to built great looking sail boats.

Yes the coil of wire IS mentioned in the instructions to wrap around the deadeyes to attach to the chain plates.

BTW I found on the one of the Australian web sites thread for rigging that has a (brown) colour. Maybe I will get some if the correct thickness as the supplied thread is very light in colour.

I will take the opportunity in asking another question now although it will be some time before I get to the sails. The instruction manual suggests for a good look to have 'lines' put on the sails using a sewing machine (there is a clothing alteration place nearby which should be able to do that). Have you seen this done before and are there other methods? I thought trying to draw them on using a very fine point pen might caused 'bleeding'. And it appears that the edges of the sails are folded over with thread in the 'pocket' (formed by the edge folded over) for the rigging. Is the folded edge usually just glued down?

Just found that thread and it is at Cornwall Boats. Good news is that they would only charge GBP3.65 for airmail delivery so I will order some after I ascertain the diameter of the thread supplied to match.

Thanks

John

Edited By John Arnold 3 on 26/01/2018 10:31:28

Edited By John Arnold 3 on 26/01/2018 10:32:29

Edited By John Arnold 3 on 26/01/2018 10:48:38
26 January 2018 at 11:07 #75403
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
John,

Which replacement rigging thread is that you are looking at at Cornwall Model Boats?

If you are thinking of replacing some of the furnished threads (probabaly not a bad idea), I would seriously suggest that you also take a long, good look at the stuff from Syren Ship Model Company **LINK**. This is real rope, handlaid, beauiful to look at and lovely to use, and comes in four different colours. And it's not very expensive either!

Mattias
26 January 2018 at 11:49 #75404
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
John,

One further comment re: replacement parts: Have you thought carefully about starting down this path?

The reason I ask is because once you do start, the sky very quickly becomes the limit! With that lovely new laid rope rigging thread, the blocks all of sudden look shoddy and clumsy, so you replace them, too, and so on and so forth.

Personally, I love to pimp my kit builds, either by making new parts from scratch or just improving parts myself, or by buying better quality replacement parts or materials when I find the furnished stuff too sub-par.

I have huge fun doing this, and find the end result much more enjoyable too, and therefore also find the money to be well spent.

The down side is of course exactly that: it costs money, which is why I started this post by asking if you have thought it all through properly …

Some builders get some of their greatest pleasure from (or make a virtue of a necessity by) doing the best job possible on the shoestringiest budget imaginable, and more power to them. That, however, does not suit me at all. It is not that enjoy spending as such, but I don't mind it, and I am a grown person earning my own money with which I'll do what I damn well please that floats my boat as long as it's within the confines of the law and general morals. And brother, does quality stuff float my boat?! Oh, aye …

However, I am extremely loath to point other people in my own direction of travel, unless I am fully assured that they are consenting adults who (a) can afford it, (b) won't mind the cost too much but will take at least a corresponding amount of pleasure from the process and the result, and (c) have a mind of their own and will only take my advice if they actually agree with it.

If, after reading this, you are seriously interested in improvement by replacement, then I'd be very happy to point you in various directions, as long as I am sure you won't mind that this won't involve much shoestring.

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 26/01/2018 11:51:13

Edited By Banjoman on 26/01/2018 11:51:48

Edited By Banjoman on 26/01/2018 11:53:26
26 January 2018 at 12:42 #75405
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
Now, about sailmaking.

Yes, the technique you describe of sewing lines on to the sail is very common, and should look very good. The idea is to imitate the effect made on the real sails when seen at a distance of the seams where the bolts of canvas have been stitched together. This photo (**LINK**) with the sunlight shining through the sails shows very clearly what I mean.

Traditionally, sails were most often made from 24 inch wide bolts of cotton or flax canvas, so those seamlines would sit roughly 24 inches apart on the sail. Looking at the photo linked to aove, I'd say that it looks pretty much like 24" canvas to me. At the scale of 1:100 that is as close to 6 mm as makes no difference.

Please note that a sail should always have the leech on the warp of the canvas to set well. The leech is the aftermost edge of the sail, and warp are the long threads set up in the loom into which the shorter weft threads are woven. In other words, the seamlines are all parallel with the aft edge of the sail. Again, see photo above.

There are some alternative construction methods when it comes to triangular fore-and-aft sails, but before we go into that, some more looking at photos of the real Bluenose II is probabaly called for …

Full size, traditional sails don't have ropes sewn into the tabling (the turned over and sewn down edges of the sail) but have what's called bolt ropes sewn onto the edge of them. On fore-and-aft sails (which is what all sails on Bluenose II are), this is usually sewn onto the port side of those edges; on square sail, they are sewn onto the back of the edges.

For much more detail on this, I will again refer you to one of my build logs, namely pp. 34 (**LINK**) to 37 of the Moonbeam thread. Of course, this is at a much larger scale (1:24), so can (must, I'd almost say) include more detail, but many of the principles will apply.

Whether at 1:100 it is worth the trouble to sew down the tabling, or if you should just glue it, is open to debate. I think it is indeed fair to say that you could probabaly get a better scale effect by using glue, as it is much more tricky to get sewn tabling small and flat enough. And I certainly don't think you should bother with false tabling on the luff; your sails will be there to look good on a shelf, not to set properly with the wind in them. You will need to find a glue, though, that will neither too much stiffen the cloth, or discolour it, and that will accept ironing without coming unstuck.

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 26/01/2018 12:45:23

Edited By Banjoman on 26/01/2018 12:46:10
26 January 2018 at 23:05 #75422
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Hi Mattias,

Firstly I had just finished entering a fairly lengthy reply and looking back at your posts thought I would go to one of the links again. That didn't open it in a new window so when I returned all my typing had disappeared – so annoying. I will have to remember to RIGHT click the link and select 'open in a new window'. I have been so used to it automatically opening a new window in other forums which in my humble opinion should be the normal.

Well to try and recap on what I typed before.

Yes I realise that I could go 'overboard' (another nautical term) in replacing some of the supplied items and may well do it for the deadeyes as the ones supplied have very small holes and although it has been suggested to use a needle threader I am not sure if that will work. I could also resort to drilling them to a larger size. I have seen ones online for other kits which seemed to have much larger holes in comparison to the overall size.

The supplied thread is in two sizes (diameters) and the thicker one has a distinct look which resembles the twist in real rope but wow you have to get mighty close to see it. Anyway if I can determine the thickness of what has been supplied I will order some replacement BROWN thread as what I have is white.

Billings have supplied a pattern for both cutting out the sails to the correct size and where the lines should be sewn to imitate joins so no problems there. It's only how to secure the parts folded over along the edges. Looking at the link to the Moonbeam I can understand sewing it but that is a large model and maybe not look good at 1:100. Finding a suitable glue which dries both reasonably flexible and doesn't stain will be a challenge but I will ask at our local Spotlight store which sells all things do do with sewing and stitching and also contact model boat shops and ask them do they sell something suitable.

I think that I have covered everything in your replies – my apology if I missed something after having to retype everything.

I move on with far less trepidation that before thanks to all your interest and replies and information. I have tried to solve a lot of things myself by looking at pictures/videos of the real boat and also at the instruction manuals for other manufacturers version of this lovely looking schooner.

We are headed for another hot day today (mid 30'sC) and it has been at least that for the past week and not cooling for a few more days. We had a day to 47C 2 weeks ago which was a record for that town. 2 or 3 degrees cooler where I live in the Blue Mountains at about 300 metres elevation so still hot. Thank goodness for aircon but not the cost of running it.

Regards

John
28 January 2018 at 00:34 #75434
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Hello again Mattias,

Just a couple bits of information I have found (which of course you and many other readers will already know about) and that is a 'template' for determining 'rope'/thread sizes and it is at the Syren Ship Model Company. **LINK**

The second one is colouring the thread using cold tea or wood stain.

Lastly in I had emailed a number of places mostly model shops who sell the Billings Bluenose asking if they had links to more/better instructions and received a link to a website where I was able to download a FULL size plan which was created by Billings. It comes as a PDF file and when printed using the printer 'poster' option. It displays a lot of things which I can use to better understand how things fit together and how the rigging goes which are NOT in the supplied instruction manual. I am totally surprised that Billings do not include this with the kit.

I have found that the Billings Bluenose II 576 kit (scale 1:65) apparently has a full size plan as there is a photo of a cat sitting on it at http://www.blairaltman.com/bluenose-model-boat-project

Most annoying

John

Edited By John Arnold 3 on 28/01/2018 00:55:54
28 January 2018 at 03:19 #75435
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Added later after 'edit' was closed off.

I would like to upload the PDF plan mentioned above so that you could view I but can only find methods to upload images. The PDF I have was attached to an email rather than coming from a link which I could have easily placed here.

I have created an image of part of the plan as I want to ask yet another question even though I am no where near rigging.

Looking at the plan there are numbers in circles all which appear to be directed at the rigging. They appear to me to be the ORDER in which the rigging should be done. Once again no information from Billings. Please advise.

Thanks

John

Edited By John Arnold 3 on 28/01/2018 03:21:35

Edited By John Arnold 3 on 28/01/2018 03:25:38

Edited By John Arnold 3 on 28/01/2018 03:28:27
28 January 2018 at 07:49 #75437
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
John,

I'll PM you my e-mail address, so you can send me a copy of those plan to look at properly, and we can then discuss it further.

And yes, as you thought I was indeed aware of those things – I'd actually mentioned in passing the tea staining technique over in your thread on drilling holes in metal, when we were discussing how to do ratlines …

If I need to check the thickness of a thread, I will usually use a micrometer; obviously very carefully, though, or the thread would be squashed flat, and the reading come out wrong … But checking against that table from Syren should be very helpful!

If one hesitates about which thickness of rigging thread to buy or to use in a particular position, it is also often a very good idea to do the scale calculation! Just as an example, the thinnest rope from Syren, at 0.008", would at scale 1:100 correspond to a rope 0.8" = 20.32 mm thick, the 0.012" would be 30.48 mm in real life and so on. For anyone of the true rivet counter persuasion, there are tables of rope thicknesses used for different parts of rigging at least as far as sailing men o'war were concerned, but also, I think, there were rules laid down in various Lloyd's insurance classes for merchant sailing ships that one could look up to know what size thread to use for a typical halliard as opposed to a typical bowline. For the less obsessive model builder, the exercise is still useful just to, as it were, make sure the rigging does not look completely unrealistic.

Anyway, getting hold of that plan is great news! It'll make the rigging work so much easier! And I am as surprised as you that it wasn't included in the kit when you bought it?! You mentioned getting it from eBay, though … Was it by any chance a second hand kit, and might the seller have forgotton to put it back in?

Mattias
28 January 2018 at 08:06 #75438
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Hi Mattias

No it wasn't a second hand kit. Although it was listed on Ebay the seller actually was models4hobby in England at Chilton in County Durham. I have been unable to contact them as their web site doesn't exist anymore so maybe gone ou of business.

Yes I know you have mentioned cold tea but I was just relating the two different ways suggested in another document I read.

I will now send that PDF to you.

John
28 January 2018 at 10:17 #75441
Banjoman
Participant
@banjoman
Hello John,

Plans have duly arrived, and I've had a good look at them.

I'd say that I do not necessarily think that those circled numbers indicate the sequence in which the rigging should be set up, although it will not be a disaster if you more or less follow them. However, I think would have been more inclined to start with the shrouds (and possibly backstays), rather than with the fore- and jibstay, to guard against pulling things out of kilter with the latter while there is as yet no support from behind.

In any case, I think the main point of those circled numbers becomes clear when you look at the belaying plan at the bottom of page 2 – there you can clearly see where each rope should be belayed, something that would not be obvious from the side view plan on page 1.

For a good rigging sequence, I would suggest that you compare the plan with the instructions for HMS Pickle that I linked to in a previous post; it is a not identical (Pickle being a topsail schooner, and also an older ship) but very similar rig, and seemed very logical and worked very well when I followed it for my Pickle build some ten years or so ago.

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 28/01/2018 10:17:52
28 January 2018 at 10:48 #75442
John Arnold 3
Participant
@johnarnold3
Thanks Mattias,

Before I looked at the plan I was thinking like you that the rigging would start with the shrouds.

The rigging is going to be a big challenge to me especially threading the 60 deadeyes and 52 woodblocks/pulleys and knotting as my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be.

Yes I have downloaded the Pickle instructions. I download virtually everything you send links to and it there isn't a file to download I PRINT TO PDF file do that I can view at my leisure. I have already looked through them all and will go back and read in detail looking for tips to make things easier.

That plan gives the location of and makes a lot of sense of parts which I didn't find evident in the instruction manual. I am still annoyed that it wasn't included in the kit. I just checked everything in the box again and the only paperwork which was in the kit is the instruction manual and the pattern for the sails.

Thanks again

John
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