Brutus

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Bob

The model might have been to a few shows but how many owners has it had, and how many have messed about with the electronics.

Perhaps the batteries weren't up to snuff and couldn't supply the power.

It would be odd for a builder to make a decent model only to fit substandard motors so I would presume that the lack of performance is something to do with the items mentioned above.

Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Chaps…… Got a dismal story today……..The maiden voyage at last

The motors ran nicely on the bench

But on first emersion the motors ran in reverse!………Couldn`t believe it, they were ok at home?

Swopped the wires round……..Now ok

Motors went dead in the water, soon after

Retrieved the model…….Motors running backwards again!…….They continued to go forwards and backwards for the next ten minutes at each burst on the tranny stick?

Conclusion, I had assumed wrongly in the first place, that the motors didn`t need setting up

Went home to study the instructions!…………You`ll be lucky, chum!

The receiver battery was not required and I don`t think we need the big cooling fans either

The motors run very nicely, from very docile revs to extremely high speed akin to a jet engine!

The 40mm props look far too small, and seemed to cavitate?…..but they are supposed to be matched to the motor

Not to worry, we are nearly there

I was rather hoping a few of you experts out there may like to make a few comments?

Bob

Pepe assisting with bench tests

Waiting for rescue and only slightly down at the stern

Lifeboat to the rescue

Duckie in the engine room

Bob in the bilges

In our haste, we had forgotten the compulsory life jackets! Only hope a committee member doesn`t see this!

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Bob. Two esc`s, are the both providing BEC to the rx?? may be an issue if so..

Need to run the boat tethered at the side to see whats going on. The cavitation may be the motors running independently in reverse?

Issues like this are why you need a program card!!!

Looks good..but not sure about the boot topping.

Ashley

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thank you Ashley

The boot topping is only a temporary measure, in case we go in reverse……And of course, we did!

The Rc battery is a strange one?……Will have to ask the man about that

Peering through the red mist of self doubt, magnifying glass in hand, I`ve managed to decipher the setting up instructions!………And once again, the motors are motoring nicely

Will take your advice next time we sail, Ashley and will tether the boat, as I don`t fancy another boat trip!

Looking back to yesterday`s trial, I did notice sluggishness going forward and I now assume, one prop was fighting the other?

Despite all this aggro, I am really enjoying the introduction to the mysteries of brushless motors!

Bob

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

From article in Model Boats Winter Special 2013:

The only other variable is whether or not the ESC contains a battery eliminator (BEC – see earlier). If it does then you must NOT connect an additional power supply to the receiver. Some BEC-equipped ESCs have a small slide-switch on a pair of thin wire leads. This is usually controls the onward power from the internal BEC voltage regulator to the rest of the radio system and therefore serves as a radio ON/OFF switch. It does not control the power supply from the battery to the ESC, so I would recommend also fitting an addition high-current switch in the positive lead from the main battery to the ESC unless you are in the habit of disconnecting the battery physically each time you remove the model from the water. If you do disable the BEC for any reason then leave the little switch in its ON position or you may find that the ESC doesn’t work; again, this should be covered in the ESC Instructions.

All I can add to that is if you have two speed controllers which both have BEC then not only must you not connect a separate Rx battery but you must disable the BEC in one of the ESCs. I suggest that you obtain a copy of said publication and read it. It was written for folk exactly like you, Bob.

If Colin Bishop is reading this then perhaps that article could be included in the Advice section of this website?

DM

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thank you Dave

Not seen any reference in the ESC instructions to BEC, but the system works without the RC battery, but it worked earlier with the RC battery plugged in too!

Will phone the supplier this afternoon and report back, but will have another look at the instructions first

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Dave,

I would add the article to the features section with Paul's blessing but there are 26 pdf diagrams to be converted to jpg files!

Colin

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Easily converted, Colin. Leave it to me.

Dave

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

From the same article:

Once you know the voltages and currents you can go ahead and plan the installation. For a simple single-motor model with just a speed controller and a steering servo that’s an easy task, especially if your speed controller has BEC (Battery Elimination Circuit). This is a little circuit built into the speed controller which reduces the voltage from the main motor battery and passes it down the 3-wire connection from the speed controller to supply power to the receiver. [See Fig 14]. When a speed controller doesn’t have a BEC then you can either fit a remote one or power the receiver from a separate 4-cell NiMH pack.

DM

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Bob
The boat looks great on the water but I am going to scrap the rear hatch as it will only flood when the boat goes in reverse.
Have you any suggestions as to how to access the rudders.
I am very pleased with how the build has gone and very impressed with your building skills.
Paul

Edited By Paul T on 18/03/2014 19:31:45

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Paul

Thank you very much for your very kind compliments, but you must claim some credit yourself, for the excellent "straight off the drawing board design"………I am also very impressed with your abilty of being able to calculate the end result too!

I have already removed the sliding hatch and will replace it with a thin membrane cover, sealed with waterproof tape

We don`t often need access to the rudder mech

Having spoken to the club`s resident brushless expert, John Goddard, we are now safely wired up and ready to go!

Many thanks to Dave M for his timely post

The mad scramble is over!

Bob

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

From the Vintage Model Boat website, specifications of the brushless motor speed controllers used in Brutus:

Specification:
Input voltage: 2-3S Lithium batteries / 4~12 Ni-xx
Cont. Current: 45A
BEC output: 2A/5V (Switch)
Size( length X width X high): 45x32x20mm
Weight: 60g

(My highlighting etc). If in doubt, RTFM.

DM

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thank you, Dave, I did spot that last night

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Bob
Now the mutual appreciation has been formed its time to get on with sailing. I am looking forward to some high speed straight line results, although I still have reservations about how fast the boat will corner without digging in and turning cartwheels.
Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Paul

Sorry for not replying sooner………Still fiddling with setting up the ESC!

Spotted one motor not running as well as the other motor, this morning……Reset the ESC…..Now they`ve both gone haywire!

Both motors are behaving erratically, in one direction only…..Most of the time

Tried phoning the supplier…….Always engaged or not answering the phone

Can`t sail at the moment until I`m completely confident with reliability

Will continue to explore for the time being

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

I often wonder why some suppliers won’t answer the phone they can’t be that busy
I strongly suspect that they don’t answer because they can’t be bothered….take the money and run seems to be the order of buisness these days.
Customer service died out back in the 70s

Edited By Paul T on 19/03/2014 18:48:59

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Customer service died out back in the 70s

Not everywhere, Paul.

Dave M

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Dave
So many companies that were originally customer focused have devolved into simple cash cows more so as the founders retire or sell the businesses on to the grey men who put profit above everything else.
How many times have you tried to contact some companies only to spend half an hour pressing buttons to go through the automatic system only to be put on hold with a bad recording telling you that your call is important and worse still when someone actually answers the phone its put down straight away.
Yes it annoys me and yes I am having a rant.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Paul

Now calm down….Ranting is not good for you…….But if it makes you feel better…..So well and good…..Carry on!

Been thinking and researching my Brushless problem on the net

It's amazing that there isn't a simple straight forward instruction, in the ESC instructions, telling us what to do when two ESC's are involved!…..I'm having a rant now!

With BEC involvement, the receiver battery is not used

The power for the receiver comes down the ESC wire, which is 5v

We've got two receiver wires, so at the moment, there's 10v going into the poor old receiver!

The answer is to remove the central red wire in one of the ESC's cables

Why somebody didn't tell to do this, is baffling

So I will try this and report back……Not very optimistic though!

Bob

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Bob. I am sure this issue has been raised before in the forum. There will not be 10v going into the receiver, but two lots of 5v and they will be different and that it the issue. Dont ask me to expand on that (as I dont know!!).

I have printed off a sheet with DM`s excellent graphic of "howtoremovetheredwirefromanesc" and keep this in my bits box, as it saves me having to ask (as I can never remember).

I have used this already in disabling the BEC from an ESC by taking out the pin, and actually have had to reverse this, so I am glad I didnt just cut the wire.

Its the little things that are hard to remember, especially when you dont , for instance, use two ESC`s much. The last two projects that have needed differential prop control I have used a Action P94 and power board. This is not particularly cheap but is very easy to wire up, the BEC is taken care if independently off the power board, fusing is all taken care of. In actual fact, by the time you have otherwise purchased two ESC and a mixer, and faffed around disabling BEC`s and fitting separate fuses, there is not so much in it, and it is much neater .

Ashley

Ashley

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Paul
I appreciate your frustration, although your description of automated call systems and people putting down the phone on you hardly reflects my experience of the model trade. There are lousy traders out there but the limited market will soon wheedle them out and they will surely disappear. I can personally testify that treating your customers the way you would like to be treated yourself pays dividends; I tried it and it worked.

Bob
Here is the diagram which Ashley described (from the article to which I keep referring you).

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thank you, Ashley and Dave…….Lovely drawing btw

Having RTFI……I have cut the wire off, since the wire is only an extension wire

Reset both the ESC`s……..One motor is working lovely, the one with the cut wire, will only run one way

But at times, the good motor will only run one way also!

There seems to be a short delay, before any of the motors respond to the Tranny sticks

Looking at the instructions for the umpteenth time, I realise the instructions are for a car!……..Hence, no instructions for the BEC`s

Not getting despondent yet……Still expecting an Email from the suppliers…….But not optimistic!

Bob

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Bob. Ready to fit those 600`s yet ?

Dave`s diagram is a peach. It is obvious once you have done it, but those connectors are very small. Cutting an extension lead wire is another method, but once cut it stays like that FOREVER!

Got that program card ordered Bob? A post a while back had ESC issues and the thing was set to 2s Lipo…or 7.4V.. The Nimh you have is 7.2v and I am betting the voltage drops more readily than a Lipo..this is where the cutout voltage setting comes into play and screws things up.

Not saying this is your issue, but… Of course with a PROGRAM card you can easily see what your ESC is set to.

Ashley

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thanks Ashley

Don't want to get involved with even more technical aggro at the moment!

i'm very happy with the Brushless motors……I have a cunning plan!

One motor is running nicely….One runs nicely in reverse…..Twigged it yet?

Just swop the wires round and it's running the right way!….Boom! Boom!

And I've still got reverse on one motor!!

I've not had a reply to my Email yet, and I certainly won't be using that retailer again for a prog card!

Don't want to phone, as I want the reply in writing

Bob

[Amy jane SeptemberParticipant @amyjaneseptember49770]

I can only wish you the best of luck, Bob! (my poor spinning head..)

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