type 45 destroyer radar

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Chaps, i know its a very small detail, but when you look closely at video pictures of the new type 45 destroyer (and I have seen the full size mockup they built just outside Portsmouth to test the radar) it shows that the foreward radar dome at the top of the mast, with the 4 small whip ariels ……rotates !!! Something i didnt suspect, as normally a ball type dome is just a protective cover and is static. Trivia for warship freaks, but a talking point on the pond. The other thing to look at is the speed of rotatiuon of both radar scanners, they really zoom round much faster that "normal" large scanners hitherto seen on warships, type 42 for instance. The navy is also refitting other warships with a new radar called "Artisan" (I think from memory typing away in the loft) to replace the 996 currently fitted, so that will be an update on some shipmodels to keep abreast of the times…or do poeple leave their boats unmodified once made?    Ashley

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

The ball on the top does indeed rotate. Yes, there is one of these installations up on Portsdown Hill at the back of Portsmouth harbour, I’ve heard it’s an operational one but not sure about that.. You can see it for miles. I drove past it a week or so ago and the ball was whizzing round merrily. Certainly does look different!

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

[Geoff SpencerParticipant @geoffspencer45655]

Why do we have have to have a rotating radar on the type 45?.

Ithought all targeting radars were static-Phased Array types nowadays!

Even the Spanish frigates have phased array panels.

It must be a problem collecting the data from a rotating radar.

Are our ships being fitted with second best?

 

Another point on roughly the same tonnage U.S.N.ships carry over 100 missiles ,well they are supposed to be warships ,what a T45 carry 48? Have we missed thepoint again.

[Geoff SpencerParticipant @geoffspencer45655]

Why do we have have to have a rotating radar on the type 45?.

Ithought all targeting radars were static-Phased Array types nowadays!

Even the Spanish frigates have phased array panels.

It must be a problem collecting the data from a rotating radar.

Are our ships being fitted with second best?

 

Another point on roughly the same tonnage U.S.N.ships carry over 100 missiles ,well they are supposed to be warships ,what a T45 carry 48? Have we missed thepoint again.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I dont think the radar is second best, the plates are still phased solid state types, the four plate types impose a design restraint on the superstructure, and i believe you get a better data refresh rate for a rotating ariel, and it can be much higher up over the water coz its lighter and provide a longer range. i think that there is more of a problem collecting data from a non rotating ariel. Also there is a matter of cost, thye gallium arsenide (or whatever they use) arrays are very very expensive, so using only 2 instead of 4 is much cheaper. I was mildy amused to see officers on the bridge still carrying binoculars on the bridge of the type45 they featured on the news, as of course nothing beats the mk1 eyeball. (although I dare say capt smith on the Titanic would have begged to differ….) Ashley

[Colin MillerParticipant @colinmiller68338]

The new T45 radar is better than the latest aegis phased array set up.

 

When the T45 was being designed and thought about the MOD brought an Arleigh Burke class up to evaluate the possability of buying some of these but it was decided that we could do better with our own design. I think in time the T45 will come good

 but the MOD will need to allow them to start being armed properly instead of the

“fitted for but not fitted with” nonsense.

 

It is still though an ugly looking ship

 

Colin

[Francis MacnaughtonParticipant @francismacnaughton39461]

Colin,

 

I don’t know where you got the bit about the T45 programme studying an Arleigh Burke.  I have worked with the T45 programme and its predecessor (CNGF) over the last 15 years including the radar area and the main surveillance and PAAMS control radar has always been planned to be the output from the then Siemens Plessey (now BAe Insyte) at Cowes.  In CNGF days it would have been unthinkable to use a non- European radar and there wasn’t time when UK bailed out of CNGF to seriously change direction from what had already had been done with Sampson, let alone the finances or political will to look at a US design before the T45 design had to be finalised.

 

Artisan is effectively a development of Type 996 but from what I have seen a lot less lumps and bumps and exposed electronic boxes than 996 so should be easier to model. 

 

Francis Macnaughton

 

 

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

So what are the 4 whip ariels on the targeting radar for? and why do they move around with the dome….come to think of it WHY does the dome rotate at all???

I have seen a t45 hull..cant remember who is making it, but I am wondering if this will be a very “tender” model, with that very large superstructure and very tall main mast ?? or possibly the slightly fatter width/length ratio will save it? I am all for accuracy in models but am prepared to compromise sllghtly to get good sailing characteristics , e.g  make the hull a bit deeper to get some stability in there.  Ashley 

[Francis MacnaughtonParticipant @francismacnaughton39461]

Not exactly sure what they are for and may well be classified anyway but it is a Multi Function radar inasmuch as it does the traditional scanning task, the fire control tracking of a target and the missile guidance uplink all from the same rotating head.  So I expect the whips are for the uplink task or as part of the anti jamming facilities.  I presume that the design team reckoned it would more cost (and performance?) effective to have two back to back phased arrays rotating rather than at least 4 that are fixed on the superstructure. On the issue of stability at least when you are building a model you have the option of balsa and similar very light materials.  The previous design of radar ,Type 996, was originally going to have a protective dome but I was told by a Plessey engineer that they couldn’t fit it because the existing hulls like the T42 didn’t have enough stability to take that extra weight that high.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I can understand the whip aiels may be interferometers or something, but one would have thought that whizzing round would degrade their performance somewhat? Ashley

 

 

[Francis MacnaughtonParticipant @francismacnaughton39461]

Sorry Ashley,

 

You must be mistaking me for a radar engineer – I only used to use them!

 

The answer to your question no doubt is to be found in a technical manual on Radar Type 1045 as I understood the MFR was being  labelled but it will be classified secret or thereabouts!  All you can be sure of is that if you do a model of a T45 with the small aerials it is accurate.

 

Francis Macnaughton

[Colin MillerParticipant @colinmiller68338]

Hi Francis to answer your question,
I got it from the people build the T45’s and

who carried out the study of the Arleigh Burkes

[Francis MacnaughtonParticipant @francismacnaughton39461]

Colin,

 

I would be interested to know when the Arleigh Burke design was studied?  As I said earlier the message was firmly to cooperate with European partners during the CNGF period in the 1990s and the T45 final design was very much rushed through after UK participation in April 1999 in CNGF was cancelled.  They started cutting steel on DARING in early 2003 and the main design issues including the position of the radar must have been finalised well before then – my understanding was that there simply was not enough time realistically to change such a fundamental aspect of the overall design.

 

Looking at the Navy Matters page on CNGF/T45 at  http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cngf.htm  I see mention of a 10 week study period in August 1999 so perhaps the possibility of a change was considered then but I suspect that there were too many factors (time, cost, industrial and political) that meant continuing with Sampson/MFR was the only solution.

 

Ashley,

 

There is a bit at http://navy-matters.beedall.com/sampson.htm that gives a bit more on the radar but doesn’t actually say what the whip aerials are for!

 

Francis Macnaughton

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I dont suppose we will ever find out what the ariels are for  !  Ashley

[Colin MillerParticipant @colinmiller68338]

Hi Francis,

I will ask them when they did the survey but off the top of my head

it would of been between 2000/01

 

The whip ariels are they fixed at a set angle??

I saw the radar turning a few weeks back and it looked as if they moved

up and down as the radar turned………could just be an illusion

 

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Ashley  this may   be of some help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4EMEQwGiTY&feature=related

Dave Wooley

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Dave, yes, good clip.I cant think that i have seen any ship with ariels that rotate ??  What it doesn’t show, also, is the main radar rotating. That goes round at a lick too !  Ashley

[Author]

Posts