Scuffy and the Compass

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

I am feeling slightly pleased with myself, having spotted the potential of JR's proposal and getting pooh poohed into the bargain!

I sent a PM to Gareth and he seems to share my opinion on the matter

This is the sort of thing that the hobby needs……….A shot in the arm with a novel solution to an age old old problem!

It may come to nothing, but the thread should make interesting reading over the Christmas period?

All the best Gareth and Kimmo

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

The original model yachtsmen were after the holy grail of keeping their boats on a pre defined course but all they had available were engineering solutions such as the vane and Braine gears. Arduino offers a modern equivalent which might be made more sophisticated in some respects. But, as I think has already been stated, you would need to decide whether you are programming for a set course or towards a specific point. In the latter case issues will arise on the extent to which the sail settings need to automatically adjust to compensate for a change of heading caused by the boat being pushed in a different direction to the one originally intended and maybe needing to switch from a tack to a reach etc.

Given that model yachts are either free sailing requiring skill to initially set up for a run or radio controlled to respond to skipper input skills it would seem that the use of Arduino would move the skill input back from the water to the initial programming which might take the fun out of things for a lot of people. Would the use of gyroscopically controlled darts take the enjoyment out of the game for example?

I would think that the real potential of Arduino lies in the ability to set up sequential or complex working features which would otherwise require complicated electro mechanical methods. I would imagine that the people who display working cranes, trucks and vehicles at modelling shows make a lot of use of it while it must be manna from heaven for model railway enthusiasts.

I can see that Arduino would appeal to the younger generation, it very much reminds me of programming naval wargames into the Sinclair Spectrum back in the 1980s, (Battle of the River Plate in 24k!) but I do wonder if model boating offers the best opportunities to display its capabilities.

Colin

 

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 05/12/2015 17:12:54

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Luddite

As usual the uninformed and short sighted have completely missed the point and decided instead to try and score cheap points in a perceived game of intellectual brinksmanship that they can not possibly hope to win.

As I cant use crayon and finger paints I will try to explain matters as simply as I can although its been a long time since I conversed at primary school level.

If you read the posting properly you will see that I'm not against the technology, even though it has severe limitations it might have some merit in the smaller, simpler two channel models although I had always thought that the skill in model sailing was the ability to maintain a heading without having to rely upon electronic gadgets.

I was making a point about self publication of a commercial website and to his credit John has taken it like a man.

It might seem amusing to call someone a Luddite but its not so funny when the same Luddite shows you up to be such a shallow person that you run the risk of getting out of your depth on a damp pavement.

Upsetting isn't it

Luddite

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Paul

I think you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick here?

You mention two channel radio yachts for some reason…….There is no radio involved in this discussion!

Or have I misunderstood you?

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Bob

No I haven't got the wrong end of any stick, I was generalising about the technological level where this system fits in.

Paul

[John.RedearthParticipant @john-redearth]

I am enjoying this, and thanks Gareth for a breath of common sense here. Whether or not this works for you is not the issue. You are open to ideas.

My interest is scratch building, which is at its heart about building something using everyday materials and making it look as good as a bought one.

I say that because arduino is sort of about scratch building. The processor is as cheap as a cup of coffee, and what you make of it is about how far you can stretch your imagination. As I have said, my sub is working beautifully and I have replaced lots of fixed purpose parts with a processor, a rack of relays and a pressure gauge. (Cost of a whole lunch) Not only that but getting it do more is about fiddling with the script and uploading it.

Gareth. My little script will keep the boat on a course, that’s all, so if the wind changes it will run into trouble. The website robosail is worth a look. **LINK** These guys are really nerdy, and I can’t see the purpose of it all although having said that I have to watch about becoming luddite too, don’t I? However the descriptive stuff and the scripts on here are just amazing, and they include wind vanes to assist yachts.

Colin: ‘I can see that Arduino would appeal to the younger generation.’ Exactly. My club is made up of over 60’s, as I am, most of whom are quite eccentric. (Have you seen the series The Detectorists? Say no more) For just a very few, this stuff is appealing, but they tend to be under 60’s and there are not many of them. I think that writing this off is risking the future of the hobby. I think that the Mag should rethink its view and raise the whole idea to the model boating community and then start a forum that focuses on it. It will start slowly but in a couple of years it will be significant, and the Mag will start to connect with a whole new audience.

It’s about creativity, and it is so cheap.

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Kevin

I find myself at a complete loss for any words that Paul hasn't just put together far more eloquently than I could hope to have done. Thank you, Dr Thomason.

DM

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Paul and Dave,

If I have offended you, I apologise unreservedly. I was trying to lighten what seemed like a heavy handed and almost totally negative response to someone who had come up with a new idea.

I realise that Arduino technology is likely to be a niche interest in the model boating world and Model Boats magazine needs to focus on the mainstream activities for commercial reasons. However, I think the forum should be able to cater for a much wider spectrum of interests. If this is the 'wrong forum' for anyone to introduce new ideas to the model boating world then I think it will be a poorer place for that reason.

Despite the comments, I still plan to try and build an Arduino based self steering system for a model yacht, just for the interest in designing, building, testing and developing a new project, hopefully with some satisfaction at the end if it works.  It will not have any commercial value and it won't win any prizes but it will keep my brain and fingers occupied for a little while longer and hopefully will interest some of the readers of this forum and visitors to the pond side and model boat shows. 

Gareth

Edited By Gareth Jones on 06/12/2015 08:18:08

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Gareth

Looking forward to your yacht gadget experiments

Since you are Aerospace orientated, could you think about an Auto pilot type of gadget that would steer the craft to a particular spot……Rather than a course heading?

A GPS based gadget, may be a starting point?

Bob

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Hi Bob,

I was thinking along those lines as I can foresee that one of the major challenges will be how do you tell the yacht where to go. It would clearly be impractical to have to connect a lap top to it at either end of the pond.

I might have a think about it in the workshop today. I can't go out for the Sunday papers as its raining and the pavements are wet.

Gareth

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

If you have a GPS receiver connected to and exchanging data with the onboard processing unit then you can set up a destination point (waypoint) on the GPS by toddling round the pond to where you want the yacht to come ashore and inputting the co ordinates.

The yacht can then be programmed to steer for that waypoint. However there is a significant problem as this takes no account of other influences on the yacht such as leeway or any water current. So the boat will start out pointing at the waypoint but as it is pushed off its most direct course the bow will come round so it is always pointing towards the waypoint which could mean that it actually finally reaches the waypoint (if it does at all) from a completely different angle to when it was launched. This can be dangerous in full size boats, in a tidal stream for example, as you could find yourself carried into shoal water.

In full size practice you would therefore set a course angled off from the waypoint to take into account these external influences and constantly monitor and adjust it against the original plotted line so that your course 'over the ground' is indeed the intended one directly towards the waypoint. Hope this makes sense!

Not quite sure how you would get over that in the programming except by attempting to set up waypoints every few yards so that the boat is constantly correcting its heading to make a true course over the ground.

Colin

[John.RedearthParticipant @john-redearth]

Colin

Look at this. **LINK**

This is what these guys do.

Cheers

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Interesting John and obviously a challenge that would appeal to people whose main interests lie in programming that impacts on the real world, and more power to their elbows as this country really does need youngsters with flexible programming skills. However, to me personally this would not be enjoyable model boating as I like to 'drive' the boat myself.

Same with full size yachting, all the fun lies in sailing the boat and enjoying the experience, wind in your hair, water in your face, breakfast over the side etc. I can't imagine the sailors I have known being happy to retire to the boat's cabin with a laptop and mug of cocoa and simply let the boat sail itself. It rather defeats the object!

Colin

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Hi, tis' me, Kimmo

gosh John and Gareth, and Dave and Paul – cool it please, thank you. My name has been mentioned……

Arduino units and yachts, possible Gareth, but to start, where are you going to plug these electronics in. The Arduino can only supply a maximum of 200-300mA power at 5V, so you will require a servo shield and possibly a relay shield plus power. Yes, servos run on 5V ok, but you need a good 3-5A supply, and the Arduino prefers a stable 9V supply for operation. I use a step up/step down regulator at 9V for this, which means I can use a feed supply of 3 – 35V incoming.

The discussion has agreed that whatever system of steering is used, the yacht can only be programmed to the current wind direction, with Braine or Vane the boat automatically adjusts wherever it is on the water, with a programmed course/waypoint the wrong wind gust and the yacht stops going! Yes you can have r/c to the unit and tell it new directions (just by moving a stick on the Tx) but then why have the Arduino in?

For simple projects involving servos, here I mean cranes/turrets/gun swivels/container lifts/dredgers etc then the Pololu system is by far the best and simplest to use. It is already set up to run 4/8/16 servos with power in and out and can either take Tx stick signal OR be programmed very simply by the user getting the memory chip to read screens of where servo travel is required at certain times (a simple stay board of actions) the user only having to input how fast the servo should travel to achieve the end position. The great thing is that on static display the model can repeat it's actions at pre-set times, on the water the TX does the work via the operator.

I did an Arduino project for a gentleman on this forum not so long back. He wanted lights to come on or off at set times throughout his model when on static display. I think it involved about 6 – 8 cabins etc and time periods of 5 – 10 minutes. There is, as far as he found, nought out there for this. I programmed an Arduino to do the job using LEDs from Component Shop, a simple micro Arduino and a step up regulator. Total cost about £20 with my making a board for it to sit in. I used less than 0.001% of the Arduino's capability for this, but he has his model doing lights on/off when he wants.

I also use Arduino units for making navigational buoys. Each now has its own board because they are so cheap. This means they are independent of any master unit, no wires etc. AND most importantly, ALL the light sequences comply with COREGS so can be used for training persons wishing to pass Yacht Masters Certification or even Officers for shipping companies. I have orders from the USA for these!

Aye Kim

[Mike Wharton 1Participant @mikewharton1]

Hi all, I'd like to wade in with my two-pennyworth. I used to write articles for a now defunct hobyyist electronics magazine. That was also in the days when I had an interest in model aircraft, and took RCM&E. My disappointment was that the 'E' supposedly stood for electronics, but was really redundant.

The situation now seems even worse; the BBC are about to launch their micro:bit, a sort of Raspberry Pi gizmo that's intended to get children just starting secondary school interested in programming. I predict it will flop since today's kids have smart phones and will see such a venture as wholly inscrutable and pointless.

To get back to the topic in question, I think the Arduino is overkill, despite its finding use in many model-based applications. I have used Microchip PICs in a couple of models, ( a sub and a tug) and feel frustrated that it seems extremely difficult to inspire any interest in digital electronics with my grandchildren… or perhaps they see it as irrelevant as its source, i.e. me!

I'd love to promote education in electronics, by way of models, but it's now a forlorn hope.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I think you are right Mike. Today's kids are generally consumers rather than originators. Even with the complexity of today's computer games, ultimately the player can only do what the games writers have programmed. The creative bit is the programming. It is much the same in the modelling world. Many of today's boaters will buy the hull, superstructure and most of the fittings (unless they buy an RTR or something off Ebay) so all they really bring to the model is assembly and painting. There are no skills to learn or problems to solve which are the things that are needed to develop original thinking.

Even LEGO tends to come in 'kits' these days so you can only make the thing illustrated on the box instead of letting your imagination run riot if you only have the basic bricks to play with. I'll bet a lot of kids were once really inspired by Meccano which allowed you to learn and apply engineering principles. These days everything seems to come ready made!

Colin

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Hello everybody again,

John, I've just taken 3 minutes to look at the link to robosails you gave above, wow!!!!!! Now that's something else, we're not talking straight line sailing as with Vane or Braine, they were sailing a triangular course…

Point 1 all those taking part were UNDER 30, more like under 20. (Though one chap looked about my age.)

Point 2 they were learning about yachting, its language and how a boat sails and why.

Point 3 they had programmed the boat to "tack"when the wind come ahead. to gybe and everything.

Point 4 they were using wind speed and wind direction sensors, plus GPS (and more) to get weather/wind/position data.

Point 5 they were actually racing around a course of buoys, to a set sequence.

Point 6 they were having great FUN!!!! (Isn't that the point of our hobby?????)

I'm with Gareth on this, oh, and by the by, the boards in use on some yachts were from Bare Conductive as well.

Gareth, we could make this work, what fun, computer driven yachts – just like r/c complete with the deliberate ramming and close haul tactics but all pre-programmed in the shed! Just plot in the buoy coordinates and away. I expect some even included telemetry back to shore so adjustments could be refined for the next run.

Aye, Kimmo (it's got to be better than just flashing lights!)

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Kim

I might have this all wrong but as far as I can make out the system is suitable for a display or if you have your own lake but apart from these I cant see any advantage unless you want to upset all of the other people who are using the lake, not withstanding other obstacles such as ducks and swans.

Are other lake users to move their boats out of the way simply because this boat is on a pre-set course.

If more that one boat uses the system at the same time how will do you prevent collision without co-ordinating all of the individual programming.

Paul

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Hi Paul,

when we are Vane or Braine racing we have the lake to ourselves, that is, the racing pairs set off with at least 10metres of clear water ahead of them. Yes, collisions occur sometimes, and those involved get to run the leg again.

Ducks, swans, rowing boaster whatever are always there on open waters, it's your own yacht that's likely to come off worse, thats why we have bow bumpers so as not to skewer opponents – when we should all be racing in a similar direction anyway. for example, we have a 16 acre lake to sail on here, and with just two boats free sailing on the water, originally unaware of each other as we were shielded by an Island, the boats managed to come together, no damage. We build the yachts to take some hits, we have no protrusions outside the deck line so it's very very rare to inflict damage.

We regularly hold combined events here with upwards of 8 free-sailers pottering across the lake at all angles, whilst through the middle the r/c yachters steer their course. If they want to win their race, they steer around what is the same obstacle for all, a free sailing yacht. I find it beyond comprehension that high speed electric boat racing has so few collisions, even when there are breakdowns all the time.

The chances of a collision in free sailing are the same as if using a computer controlled one, they'll all be on slightly differing courses. I think I've seen more r/c controlled coming togethers due to inattentive operators chewing the cud rather than steering the boat, and then don't mention the chap that turns up with a Lifeboat with twin brushless wanting to do 30 knots in a crowd – no don't mention his trail of destruction at all..

The challenge is in the programming, the combining of sensor inputs to desired outcomes – a bit like designing a boat – will she perform as planed – what went wrong – what needs changing. It'll keep the old grey matter churning for at least another year, and then I've got to program the Gondolier – with 17 differing oar strokes? Impossible or is it?

Good to hear from yer, well done with the charity effort by the way and speak soon, aye, Kim.

[John.RedearthParticipant @john-redearth]

Yes Kimosubby. I find this website amazing. **LINK** And it does focus on young people and teaches them about sailing. It is interesting that your particular passion for vanes fits with this so well. And I really get the ‘wow’ comment, and it really gives me a kick to see you ‘firing.’ I do also but about different ideas and projects.

We are basically a lot of old blokes who are mostly on the spectrum. (This is a common joke at our club.. to be a member a diagnosis is helpful). How do we connect with the younger generation? My sons, 33 and 12, are not in the least interested so I am no good at it. When they come to a club it is like coming to a ‘mens shed’ with boats. So I do worry about the future of our hobby. It really is therapeutic and has a beauty of its own but there is a generation not connecting at all. That means, like it does for the Anglican Church where the average person is 72, the writing is on the wall.

Robosail is a good lesson in how to reverse that.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I do wish you luck with this John but as Kim says, the challenge is in the programming and people who are into the programming have the world as their oyster in terms of applications so I fear that only a small minority will also embrace the model boating route.

In a sense we have been here before. When home personal computers first came out in the early 1980s the world went mad about them. Umpteen magazines appeared with program listings that you had to type in to achieve various weird and wonderful on screen effects and there were huge debates about the features of the various competing programming languages. Although in my early thirties at the time I became absolutely fascinated with it all and saw the PC as a way of developing my old hobby of Naval Wargaming which had been paper and model based in the late 60s/early 70s. I even had a couple of games commercially published, one on the Battle of the River Plate, the other simulating the Channel Dash of the German warships from France to Germany.

But although computers were the ideal medium for wargaming applications, the idea never really took off as everyone wanted out and out shoot 'em up games. Improved graphics have given this particular niche a new lease of life in recent years although I have moved on. The other thing that happened was that after the initial explosion of interest, PC owners quickly divided into the minority who wrote the games and the majority who just played them which is pretty much where we still are today.

In my case, I developed an interest in databases which I was able to use to write and maintain a complex property management and accounting system for a large County Council which initially went live in 1988 and which I believe is still used for look up purposes today. I enjoyed myself hugely and it was a large part of my career.

I think my point is that however much you promote these things, they will only really catch on with a relative minority of enthusiasts although that doesn't mean that you shouldn't make the effort as you could be nurturing the next Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg. Programming does require a particular sort of mindset and problem solving ability which most people do not have and I think this is the great limiting factor.

The 70s & 80s scale model boating scene saw some amazing things being done by enthusiasts with just a four channel set and fiendishly imaginative home designed electromechanical devices. But there were only a few of them and everyone else continued to trundle round the pond with just basic motor and rudder control, again very much as they do now.

I will be very interested to see how Arduino and its rivals catch on but I don't expect them to revolutionise model boating I'm afraid. This not being negative, just pragmatic!

Colin

 

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 07/12/2015 23:02:04

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

John,

if you go over to the other boating place [this is like Westminster – 'in another place' and all that] they are getting into chips and starting to think "outside the hull" as it were. Just enter the Ardxxxx word in the search engine, lots of posts and interest.

Right, back to building hatch covers with compound curves!

Aye, Kimmo

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Colin,

I agree with you that an 'Arduino autopilot' for a model yacht is going to be a minority interest but I think you are overplaying the programming aspect. There is a significant difference between such a project and say, a computer game or spreadsheet development. The important aspect is that this system and its associated software have to interact with real world hardware and environment. Taking the proposed example of a processor based alternative to a model yacht vane gear it will be necessary to decide:-

What are the basic functional requirements

Research available hardware

Assemble the control package – processor, power supply, global positioning system module, gyro/compass module, servo interface module, maybe a wind direction sensor and data logger.

Package it all in a robust waterproof enclosure

Decide on a control strategy – eg if trying to hold a heading, how much correcting rudder do you apply when there is an error

Write the code and download it to the processor

Test the system on the bench

Fit it into the test yacht and see how it works on the lake where the dynamics of the whole system come into play, how quickly does the model deviate from its required course, what effect does the wind strength and direction have, how does the set of the sails affect the model, how much rudder do you apply to correct an error, when do you take off the correcting rudder input etc. All these things you do naturally when holding a transmitter in your hand but its not straightforward to automate them.

I think there will be lots of challenges, not only in the programming but assembling the hardware, understanding how it works, deciding on a control strategy, testing it out and coming to a better understanding of how it all works and affects the performance of the yacht. There is scope for a lot of interesting engineering work and in some senses, its not really fundamentally different to the challenge of trying to assemble a set of Action Electronics speed controls, switches and sound units and trying to get the effect that you want.

Watch the forum for further details when Project ?? starts after Xmas.

Gareth

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Gareth, yes I take your points and it will be interesting to follow developments.

If members on here are sufficiently interested I can set up a section entitles something like 'Model Boat Electronics' or something similar to collect topics on this subject together where they will be more easily found.

Don't worry about mentioning the Mayhem site. We maintain a peaceful co existence and Martin Davis is a good friend.

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Gareth

I've alway's imagined the final electronic gadget would be a point and press the button setup and off you go?

Don't know about setting the sails though?

Bob

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