Looking for a designer

[captainslogParticipant @captainslog]

john have you gone the scale modellers site? dare i say it the plastic gang? they are absolutely superb at converting plastic kits. whatever scale, into cut outs. Its just an idea but it probably wont give you your working model and the best people to talk to on yer are the ones who have already given good advice regarding that. regards keith

[John ShireParticipant @johnshire55937]

Captainslog

I have been told that the model builders on this site are the best in the UK so I am sticking here.

All

If anyone else is interested doing either the drawings or building the models please contact me before 9am tomorrow (27th October 2012)

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

John….broaden your horizons with regards to builders……………although there are superb builders on this site there are other sites, and one site in particular dedicated to submariners, and that is :

**LINK**

another aproach is to contact any of the guys that regularly post on Modelboatmayhem:

**LINK**

and in particular the member Richard Huggett who goes under the sudonym of U33

these guys will be able to, more than anyone, steer you towards your goal.

Neil.

ps. I have nothoing to do with this forum, submarining or any form of that jonre' of model making…………..tried in once and failed dismally……never again, but good luck with your quest………..a good and noble one.

[John ShireParticipant @johnshire55937]

Neil

Thank you for the links and I will certainly keep them in mind when it comes to the build stage.

Before starting this project I carried out 12 months of research to find the best 'all in one' model boat designer & builder and certain members of this site including yourself came out on top.

As a designer & builder yourself you will appreciate my wish to keep the project 'under one roof' especially when I am about to spend an appreciable amount of money.

On the subject of money and to go against Pauls wishes regarding disclosure I would like to inform the entire forum that Paul has already stated that apart from build and other material costs all of his fees would be donated to the Royal British Legion. 

John

Edited By John Shire on 27/10/2012 06:54:13

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

John and Paul

I do hope the project goes ahead, as it would make a fabulous WIP build on the forum!

How about a surface sailing vessel with dynamic diving? That would be a much simpler build without much risk?

Dynamic diving is submerging using front hydroplanes, which could be RC controlled, and the forward speed causes the sub to submerge.

We have lots of subs in the club and their owners very rarely submerge completely, for fear of doing a Thetis!

Bob

[John ShireParticipant @johnshire55937]

Hello Bob

I thank you for your comments regarding the dangers associated with operating model submarines however the design/build brief is to create a model that will dive and operate whilst submerged.

Whilst I appreciate the magnitude of technical problems involved I am confident that whoever does the work will rise to the challenge.

John

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

A bit of thread drift here but it may be of interest.

My father served his apprenticeship as a boiler maker in the dockyard in Holyhead, starting I guess around 1934. He later went on to work at Cammell Laird in Birkenhead during the second world war. When the Thetis was recovered and beached on the north coast of Anglesey in 1939, my father was one of the volunteers from Holyhead dockyard who took part in the recovery of the remaining bodies from the submarine. As a small boy I can remember him telling me how distressing this was and showing me the memorial to the event which is situated in the cemetary in Holyhead.

Building a detailed working model of the M1 would be an excellent memorial to the people who lost their lives in it, and would make a really interesting build blog on this site. I am not volunteering for the job, but a model of Thetis would make a good follow on project after Shemarah……..

Gareth

[John ShireParticipant @johnshire55937]

I have reached agreement with Paul over the research and production of working drawings for the M1 project.

We have both agreed to have an 'open book' regarding the arrangement so the details are 12 A1 size drawings showing plans / elevations and all details at £400 per A1 sheet. Paul estimates that the research and drawing will take some 200 hours to complete and as he has other work ongoing at the moment he expects to be completed by April 2013

John

[John ShireParticipant @johnshire55937]

Dear Members

I am still open to hearing from members who might like to build the model of the M1 that Paul is currently drawing.

Paul is still fully prepared to build the model but he has pointed out that if someone else was undertaking the construction the build could start in mid February 2013.

It is intended that the main structure of the model will be built from copper.

There would be a retainer payment of £1000 and all materials would be provided based upon Pauls specification. Stage payments will be made during construction with a final bonus payment being paid upon completion.

If you are interested in doing this work please pm me to discuss the matter.

John

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I think that your requirements for the building of your submarine in copper are beyond most modellers John……in fact cold rollong copper and steel for what you would requie a hull to be made of is a very specialist labour intensive passion, and I have only ever seen it done once, and that was by a classic car restorer who was restoring a Bird Cage Maserati who was also restoring my Austin Healey 3000 that was 35 years ago

I wish you good luck with your quest to have the sub made from copper, but in my wildest dreams it would be something I wouldn't even consider in a lifetime of experience……..but those are the sorts of persons I think you should be looking at for your sub hull………try the Classic Car mag, back pages for someone who will roll the copper for you.

neil.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Looking at pictures of the M1, and it`s complicated shape……I would be thinking along the lines of a wooden master plug for the complete submarine carcass……..From which a fibre glass mould would be made…….From which the final fibre glass shell would be produced?

I can only assume, Paul is using a length of large bore copper tube for the workings?

It`s a great pity, the actual design is all hush hush and behind closed doors

Perhaps if Mr Shire could release a few clues to the actual construction of the model, members would offer their services with confidence?

Just thinking out aloud………..Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

I don't share the trepidation about using copper especially when someone else is paying for the materials, after all working in copper is fairly straight forward and put in its simplest terms is merely 'bash & braze' around a wooden last.

But I have to admit that it is 30 years since I last did any coppersmithing so perhaps the memory is a little rose tinted.

Paul

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Good luck,

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Paul

How thick will the copper sheet be?……….0.020"….?

It will look nice with rivetted construction……..Especially when the paint starts chipping off

Here`s an interesting sub website…….

**LINK**

Food for thought

Bob

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Tell you what guys…the amount of crud on the bottom of that swimming pool, you'd be lucky if you didn't come out of it after swimming with a permenant desease……it was filthy……..and the EU has just said the sea at Cleveleys, lancs hasn't passed the strict baithing criterior for a blue flag……………

It's cleaner than that pool, lol

[Dave_PParticipant @dave_p]

This is going to be a very interesting project with out doubt.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Tjere was an excellent model of HMS M1 built by David Brown in the recent Model Engineer Exhibition at Sandown Park – seen below with the later 'cruiser' submarine HMS X1.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob

24 gauge copper sheet (0.020) the stuff the roofing guys use.

Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Good morning, Paul

Just thinking out aloud, as usual…..

The carcass looks very slender and will be quite heavy built in copper and I was wondering if there was enough air space inside for surfacing?

Time for one of Archimedes Eureka Moments?

There's always the dynamic diving option?

Bob…….Not a sub expert

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Bob

I am working on the basic buoyancy calculations for static diving at the moment based upon the configuration and capacity of the M1 main ballast tanks and the estimated weight of the finished model.

The problem is the high centre of gravity due to the mass of that gun and how the centre of gravity changes during a dive.

Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Paul

What is the estimated weight of the ready to go sub?

I just like to amuse nyself with a few calcs

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Sorry to spoil the fun Bob but the weight keeps changing as I substitute different materials for the internal equipment and it will be a couple of days until I bottom it out.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

OK, Paul

I`ll guess it at 60lb?

I should imagine you are having great fun at the moment?

The top heavy gun area is History repeating itself!

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Actually, according to the information suppled with the model I have illustrated above, when submerged the gun barrel actually contributed to buoyancy, being sealed at both ends.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

I hate to burst the bubble but the addition of the gun and equipment added some 650t to the submarine, the sealed barrel whilst adding a little buoyancy to the overall boat could not overcome the effect of this mass.

Paul

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