How many people still scratch build?

[Phil Winks 1Participant @philwinks1]

quote from Bob Wilson

“If you buy deck fittings, you are not scratchbuilding!” 

Bob surely the fabrication of small metal items such as fairleads that are beyond the scope of many shed men does tnot preclude them from scratch building maybe the lack of scratch builders is the result of over purism. after all how many shipwrights cast their own metal fittings. not many I’ll wager.

Edited By Phil Winks 1 on 08/05/2009 20:00:53

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

The original question was “how many people still scratchbuild?”    The lack of suppliers of deck fittings has nothing to do with it as far as I can see.   If you buy deck fittings, you are not scratchbuilding

 

sorry bob,

but i have to agree with phil to a point, and also i feel that this is, after all a discussion forum, and you can’t just isloate one point from the others raised because it doesn’t fit into a narrow view of what you feel the original question was about.

being rather pedantic to say the least

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Maybe, but I am not dictating anything, just that if you go and buy fittings, I don’t see how you can say you are scratchbuilding.      I don’t think the fabrication of small parts such as bollards is beyond the capabilities of “shed” men.   It is just that they have been led to believe it is.        Scratchbuilding has indeed virtually died out, and although I lament the fact – it is a true statement!          We are not talking about real ships in any case.   In a shipyard, they will “buy in” lifeboats, engines, ropes, cables, anchors, deck fittings etc, but they are assembling ships, not models.        If you like assembling kits, fine – if you like buying bits that you “think” you can’t make, again fine.    But  you are not scratchbuilding.     Call it semi-scratcbuilding if you want, but it is not true scratchbuilding.       There is no point in lengthy replies, because I can’t be budged on this and haven’t the inclination to wrangle about it for ever and ever anyway!   
Bob   

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

a very tunnelled vision you have in that case, bob.

you answer your own question really in saying that even shipbuilders who most definately buy in certain stock items are not really scratxch building because the do buy in.

to say you won’t budge on your thoughts is to say that you know absolute, and therefore any other person’s argument is of course superfluous.

a very arrogant and pompous outlook on, not only modelling, but life in general, if i might be bold and brave enough to say.

i don’t think any one of us on here is that good a modeller that they can be so blatent as to refuse to listen to other’s opinions……..or are you.

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

I agree with Neil and Phil. To say one is not a scratch builder because one buys some items, is extremely pedantic, to say the least. Are you going to include such items as motors and prop shafts? Where do you stop? You can’t make wood, or styrene sheet. I know these are ridiculous suggestions, but your argument could, theoretically, include anything, Bob. As far as I’m concerned, if it’s not a kit, it’s scratch built, and I believe most people would share that view.

 

However, it’s a free world, and you are entitled to your opinion. It’s a hobby after all, and we do it because we enjoy it.

 

Peter.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

One problem that I find in building the Barrel Back is finding suitable pre-made fittings such at fairleads and cleats so I am either forced into casting my own or to using household DIY items from places like B&Q.

This is a typical problem that I have to deal with when building my larger scale models and as such I consider myself to be a true “scratch builder” however this doesn’t mean that if suitable fitting were available that I wouldn’t buy them as all that matters to me is the final appearance of the model.

> >

I can see Bob’s point of view but I disagree with his comments about kit manufacturers producing near perfect kits, I have built the Model Slipway Trent lifeboat and can only describe the kit as a fiendishly difficult collection of basic parts with a detailed drawing and that it took all of my scratch building skills to produce the perfect model.

> 

Paul

>

 

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I am not saying that “I know for absolute – end of story!      I am stating what to me is obvious (althoguh I accept the fact that to most of you I am wrong).   But most of you are saying for absolute I am wrong as well because YOU know!

 

Anyway, I don’t buy motors or prop shafts because I haven’t made powered models for years, so that doesn’t apply to me.

 

“If its not a kit it’s scratchbuilt!”     That comes under the same category as those who state the definition that only a three masted vessel square rigged on all three masts is a ship, anything else is a boat!

 

So, you think I am tunnel visioned, arrogant and pompous,” in life as well as shipmodelling.      

 

The only thing I can say to that is that today (9th May, 2009), I am going to the North West Model Shipwrights meeting at the Church Hall in the Church of Our Lady & St. Michael, Grimsargh, Lancashire.    The doors open at 1000 and the meeting commences at 1100 and carries on until about 1600, breaking for lunch 1230 to 1400.   Some members bring sandwiches, others go to the local pub.     Guests are always welcome.

Wives, partners and supervised children are also welcome.   Our ages range from middle 40s to late 80s.   (I am 65).     Please come along  and if, after meeting me, you can again repeat that I am tunnel-visioned, arrogant and pompous, I will, of course accept it.    There is plenty of free parking space as we park in the school car park adjoining the church.   

 

I will be taking the model of the EARL GRANVILLE along.      Members and guests are encouraged to take models.   It is a grand day out!

 

P.S.   I did not achieve any great position in life, so I have no qualifications to being tunnel visioned, arrogant and pompous.    Between early 1960 and late 1992, I was merely a merchant seaman.      Before that, I failed my 11+ and didn’t even get a single O level.    After that, I spent the years late 1992 to the present day scratchbuilding model ships.

 

Please do come along.   We have over 60 members, but the average attendance is between 20 and 25.

 

Best wishes

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Let’s lower the temperature a bit guys! There’s no need to be rude to one another – it’s only a hobby.

 

This subject was done to death on Mayhem not so long ago and no definitive conclusion was reached there either. In fact it only matters if you are entering your model into a competition which these days not all that many people do.

 

Years ago the distinction was more clear cut, you either built a kit or you made everything yourself, the fittings available were either not very good or very expensive. Since then times have changed in the modelling world and you have a spectrum which runs from Ready to Run models at one end to subjects like Bob’s miniatures at the other taking in kits, semi kits and commercial hulls along the way. Where an individual sits on that spectrum depends what they want to get out of the hobby, the skills they have and the amount of time they are able to put in. These days I think that there are simply degrees of scratchbuilding, you can buy a hull and scratchbuild every thing else. Does that make it a scratchbuilt model? No, its a hull with  scratchbuilt upperworks – just a simple description. When I made my Granada model I wanted to scratchbuild everything myself as a challenge, including the propellor – but I still balked at the anchor chain and bought that. And the firebuckets were simply painted pistol caps intended for toy guns (they haven’t gone off yet!)

 

The type of models that Bob builds are as close to pure scratchbuilding as you are likely to get. He publishes a book on CD which shares his skills with anyone who is willing to take the time to read it – well worth the small sum it costs.

 

I can also empathise with Paul’s point about kits. Having made a few for review purposes, there does sometimes come a point when you think to yourself “it would have been easier for me to make this from scratch”.

 

Model Boating is a broad church, but it isn’t a very big one so we all need to rub along together and share our experiences and skills, wherever we happen to sit in the spectrum.

 

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop on 09/05/2009 18:53:02

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Hi Colin,

Thanks for reply.    I can agree with everything you say.    Best to leave it at that.    Rest assured, I have not been insulted by any assumptions made about me.    On my first trip to sea 48 years ago, I realised that I had to become “thick-skinned” from the very start and give as much as I got.     

 

I am now about to depart for North West Shipwrights.   I do hope that at least some of you will be able to come along.    We cover everything from plastic kits to scratchbuild, semi-scratchbuild, maritime paintings and full scratchbuilds.       The whole day is noticable for good humour and laughter.    One of our very firm rules is that  we are not critical of others models – they are never judged.

 

Best wishes

Bob    

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I have just returned from North West Model Shipwrights.   There were twenty-one members there plus one guest and we had a great day.   Sorry none of you were able to make it.

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Bit far for me Bob, I spent the day at the Portsmouth Dockyard Festival of Steam but still ended up taking more pictures of ships than traction engines!

 

Colin

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

You are quite correct, Colin, it is only a hobby, and the subject of scratch building vs kits has been done to death. My statement “if it’s not a kit, it’s scratch built” is only my personal opinion, and not one I would try to force on anyone. I do believe, however, that Bob takes the argument to extreme lengths to support his views, which appear to be completely inflexible, by his own admission, and therefore can only be described as pedantic.

 

I have the utmost respect for Bob’s work which, unfortunately, I have only seen photos of, but I stand in awe of his skills as a scratch builder.

 

Peter.

Edited By Peter Fitness on 09/05/2009 23:48:21

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I was only answering the original question posed by Dr. John Booth as I saw it.      I believe most people’s views are just as inflexible.     Perhaps Dr. Booth should come in on this and say if his question has been answered in a satisfactory manner by anyone.

There is no need to be awed by my models.   I must have stated a hundred times in various forums that I consider scratchbuilding to be far far easier than assembling kits.   I have tried assembling kits on several occasions over the last few years and each has ended with me either giving them away or throwing them away.    I simply do not have the necessary skills.     The only reason I can build quite attractive models is that I have persevered over many years and refused to give up.    I don’t have much patience and rarely spend more than 70 hours on one model.    Since I started counting in late 1992, I have built over 200 of them.    Can’t give yuou exact number as my wife has my record book at the moment, doing the income tax and she is still fast asleep (0715).

 

You will see in my other postings that I do not try to force my views on any of you.   I just show you what I am doing and if any of you have any questions, I will be pleased to answer them.       This section, however, is supposed to be a discussion about whether scratchbuilding is dying out and I am merely contributing to it..

 

As some of you have said, this is going nowhere because all your views seem to be just as pedantic as mine!        

 

Bob

 

 

[Dr John BoothParticipant @drjohnbooth43899]

I am gratified that so many members have taken the time to read and become involved in this posting.
The original question was born out of my observation of changes in the style of model construction from mostly scratch building over to kits and lately the rise of ready to run models.

It is true to say that my observations began in the mid 1960s when kits and pre made parts were rare and so scratch building was really the only option.

It is also true to say that the subsequent rise the quantity and quality of kits has brought the hobby into the reach of the less technically gifted and consequently increased the number of people taking an active part in model boating from which the hobby as a whole has benefited.

From the many answers and comments that you have all been good enough to supply I have surmised that the number of people who scratch build has apparently remained constant and that it is the increase in the availability of kits that has swelled the ranks of model builders to the point where scratch building has become something of a minority pastime.

The true definition of scratch building has also been discussed, which I have to admit is something that I hadn’t considered and a subject that I will have to give some more thought.

 

In conclusion I can report that my original question has been fully answered but that the true definition of scratch building remains in question.

To resolve the outstanding definition of a scratch build I would appreciate your considered opinions as to what represents the true meaning of scratch building.

John

Edited By Dr John Booth on 10/05/2009 08:02:28

[Phil Winks 1Participant @philwinks1]

A definition of scratch building is unlikely to end up too definative for all the reasons expounded above. It obviously is in Colins words a very broad church. so broad I suspect that the extremes are never going to agree. I’m a little suprised to hear that Bob only spends 70hrs on a model, my barrelback will take longer I’m sure. it already has about 30 invested in it!! Back to the definition with bob at one end and my previous attempt at the other where I took a souvenier hand built 12″ rowing boat hull and converted it to a coastal fishing boat of sorts. (a poor attempt at that)  how can the ends ever meet. However this broad spectrum does at least allow for people of vastly differing skill levels to enjoy the pleasures of proper model shipwrighting. And I believe we should all welcome the diversity after all is variety not the spice of life

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

This definition of what  is scratch building has always intrigued me.   To be fair very few modellers  actually scratch build in the true sence of the word . You might find this statement very odd given  that those that consider them selves “Scratch Builders” by virtue of  the fact that they endevour to  make all and every item on the model. But   in my search through many museums  and ship model collections over the years  only a few  can be classed as scratch built . The nature of the word scratch  builder   in museum circles is seen as a model made  by  a member of a ships crew or ship yard workers depicting a particular vessel . Here the materials were often   sourced from , what would  then be classed as off cuts today we would probably see it a recyclable rubbish. Non the less  it was free and gathered up for the sole purpose of making a model. An good  example of this can be seen in the MMM and  one of the few examples seen in museums. Some will say but it looks out of proportion. Yes but that it often the charm of the model. These models were not  built as an exact replica, far from it  but  to while away some free time . Models of this nature would not win competitions or command high  sale figure but they are true to the meaning of  what scratch building really is.

Dave Wooley  

Edited By David Wooley on 10/05/2009 11:11:02

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

This discussion is analogous to the old theological argument of how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. There simply isn’t a precise answer that even the majority of people could sign up to. I have heard of one modeller wh argued that his kit boat was scratchbuilt because he’d assembled it himself and hadn’t bought it ready to run. At the other extreme there are those who hold that you have to chop down your tree, season the timber and then saw it into planks that you use on the model!

 

There is probably a consensus that a bought in component such as a set of bollards is NOT scratchbuilt. But people who make their own probably use brass or plastic tube which is specifically marketed for modelling purposes so in that sense much of the work has already been done for them but is the alternative to buy square stock meant for something else and “roll your own”?! Then what about my “firebuckets” intended as something else entirely but pressed into service as such. I didn’t make them, I just took advantage of them so is that scratchbuilding?

 

You could go on forever in this vein, and sometimes I think we do… But it really doesn’t matter does it? we can all have our own definitions of scratchbuilding and as long as we don’t try to force them on somebody else we can all be happy.

 

The only time there is an issue is during a competition where it is important that the judges are advised of any commercial bought in components such as GRP hulls and fittings so they can judge the amount of work and craftmanship the builder has put into the model. The reverse is also true in that if the builder has made a plug and cast his own GRP hull the judges should be made aware of this and give due credit. But you don’t have to have a definition of scratchbuilding to be able to do this.

 

Just enjoy the hobby, whichever way it takes you.

 

Colin

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Despite what I have said, I really don’t care either way.    Build what you want how you want.        I just prefer making as much of a model as I can because I enjoy the challenge of thinking out how to do it.    I am not all that keen on building lots of lifeboats for a passenger ship model, and at the scale I usually build them (32’=1″) I don’t think I even have the option of buying them, because I don’t think they are produced at that scale.    But even if they were, much as I dislike making lots of boats, I would still carry on making my own  because, as I said, I like as much as possible of a model  to be my own work.

 

A few things really do annoy me though and one of them is that I often have people looking at my models and turning to their companions and saying “Its only a kit!”

 

Another is the dumbing down of the British public to the state where 90% of them think that anything that floats is a “boat” even if it is quarter of a million tons!    And this is not an invitation for a never-ending boat/ship wrangle  – I will not even enter into this argument should it arise!

 

I suppose everyone has their own definition of scratchbuilt.    I think I will abandon it and say “handbuilt”    in future.

 

My own preference is to build obscure or semi-obscure ships.      I have never built a CUTTY SARK or VICTORY, but I did a TITANIC once just for fun.    Then I built a model of the wreck of the TITANIC (forward section).

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Colin  The question of what constitutes a scratch built model was discussed yesterday at the Harrigate show and there were a number of truly fine examples of  { I need to tread carerfully here after my last post }  scratch built models.  But I  feel I have to stand by my post and say that there are indeed many “grey” areas , excuse the pun to building from scratch.  Yes the judges working under various judging criteria have to be made aware of what goes into a particular model. I often hear modellers stating that their pride and joy is scratch built when perhaps only a proportion of the model was actually made the remainder bought in.  Strangely this this situation is reflected in the full size world. I often read that  a vessel was built  by  this  or that ship builder  .  Yes the vessel my well have been built at that yard but many of it’s components   that make up the vessel were sourced away from the yard.  So to be candid   the so called “scratch built” model models are  only reflecting real life as it is .
 Dave Wooley

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Very true, but you can’t compare it with a shipyard.    To build a single ship is the work of literally thousands of men and women.    A model is usually built by only one person.   I say usually, because my wife always does the sea in my models (although I can do them myself if I want to).

 

Here is one of my favourite “home-made” models, the five-masted barque FRANCE.   I used the small fold-out plans from DEEPWATER SAIL by Harold A. Underhill and made everything myself including the twin propeller shafts and propellers.   The masts, spars and rigging are 100% metal.    The ratlines are soldered on, but the rest is glued on.   Not a single knot in the whole affair!

Bob

 

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

True Bob   but  I am just making a point not a literal comparison. 

Dave Wooley

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

Trying to define “scratch built” is rather like being caught up in a whirlpool, you just keep going round and round and round (well, you get the idea). I believe if we are happy building the way we do, and enjoy it, why worry about a definition? Unless, of course, you enter in a competition, then you do have to worry. As I won’t be entering in any serious competitions, I am not concerned how my efforts are viewed, except to say, I am open to, and welcome, constructive criticism of my building skills, such as they are.

 

Bob, perhaps “standing in awe” of your skills is a bit OTT, let’s just say I greatly admire your models.

 

Peter.

[Barry FooteParticipant @barryfoote68385]

Erm…Excuse me but yours are pretty good too Peter…

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

Thanks, Barry, but you’ve only seen the photos. I see the real thing every day and, while reasonably happy with my efforts, I know I have a long way to go to even be compared with the skilled builders on this, and other forums – yourself included.

 

Peter.

[HvyCGN-9Participant @hvycgn-9]

I jumped in the DEEP END with my 1st scratch build most of my model building has been plastic kits and balsa RC gliders  & Buggys (when Younger!) Approximately 85 to 90% of construction of  USS Long Beach ( from plans drawn by me ) is home grown (Hull and Super structure) only the finer detailing fitting’s will or have been purchased (APS Models).

My Winter Project will benefit from all the stuff I learn’t building LB !!

 

Bruce

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