How many people still scratch build?

[Rick FryerParticipant @rickfryer11539]

Hope you’re right, Dave, but to keep the hobby going needs more youngsters to take it up, not old codgers like us returning to modelling after thirty years, as in my case.

 

Attitudes amongst  the young are very different today – not just compared with what they were when we were teenagers, but even more recently. I don’t think there is basically anything wrong with today’s young people, but they are different, with aspirations and values totally alien to those we had. I think much of this is the fault of the consumer society, where everyone is encouraged to believe that they can have everything – and have it instantly!

 

I also think we are the architects of our own problems. It is very easy to look at some of the superb work produced by experienced modellers and think  “I could never do anything like that, so why should I try?”.  Motivating people to have a go, and convincing them that trying, is more important than succeeding, is the way forward.

 

Rick

 

 

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hi Rick    Yes I would agree that aspirations and choices   younger people make today is different from even 10years ago let alone 50 years.  But looking from another perspective , I  attended  the 08  Telford International model show  An excellent show and the largest of it’s type in the UK   .IPMS shows  as such  should not be judged as a reliable indicator for the health of  our side of the hobby but an indictor non the less . Here there were young people a plenty. The same can be said for the show at Yeovilton in February which was vibrant and had a much more varied concentration of interest.  So there are young modelers out there in large numbers but perhaps not gravitating into model boating in the numbers we would wish to ensure the long term future of the hobby.  . Building any form of kit, plastic or otherwise   does introduce people to one of the basic tenets of modeling, in one word method. Beyond a certain age other distractions make their presence felt but yes you can leave the hobby but the hobby never leaves you .  How you make model boating /scratch building attractive to a younger interest group is the sixty four thousand dollar question. No doubt others such as  those in  Model Engineering and R/C flying are experiencing similar difficulties.  As for boat modelers  with  a high level of skill actually being a problem. I  doubt  very much that this   affects the equation.  In fact     when modelers attended in large numbers the Model Engineering Exhibition  you couldn’t help but  be  inspired and have  great admiration for the skill of the builders .  Perhaps the answer lies in how we perceive ourselves and others . I noted that my own local model club has increased its membership including a rise in younger members being accompanied by older  family members.  So it’s not all doom and gloom  .  >>

Dave Wooley   >>

> >

[Dr John BoothParticipant @drjohnbooth43899]

Hello Everybody

Thank you all for taking the time to post your comments and answers to my original question.

It would seem that scratch building is alive and well but the major worry is that the following generations might lack the basic skills to design or create a scratch built model.

So my basic question of “are we loosing the ability to scratch build models” appears to be far more relevant than I had anticipated and I would like, with all of your help, to explore this subject in more depth.

If possible I would like to hear from some younger model builders to ascertain how their education, as compared to an education of 40 years ago, has impacted upon their ability to design and construct models.

Conversely I would also appreciate comments from the more senior members on the changes in scratch building that they have witnessed in their lifetimes.

The question continues.

John

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

While I have only been building model boats for 4 or 5 years, I have been modelling, in one form or another, for most of my life. During that time, I have always preferred to scratch build, mainly for the satisfaction of producing as much of a model as I am capable of. I have also built several kits of boats, and aeroplanes but, as I said, definitely prefer scratch building.

 

The question as to whether we are losing the ability to scratch build is a valid one, given the ready availability of RTR models, and the quest for instant gratification by younger generations.

In my view, the most obvious changes to modern scratch building, as opposed to earlier times, are the availability of different materials for construction, e.g. styrene sheet, a wide range of affordable power tools, including some dedicated to modelling, and, very significantly,  the availability of information on the internet, including forums such as this one.

 

I have accumulated a selection of power tools over the years, including a lathe, band saw, scroll saw, miniature bench saw, and old bench saw which used to belong to my father, a thicknesser, bench drill,  belt and disc sander, and a Dremel tool. All of these, while not essential, certainly make things easier.

 

Peter.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I think that individual personality comes into it too. People may dip their toe in the water by purchasing a Ready to Run boat, have a bit of fun with it and then go on to something else. But some may have their imagination caught and be fired into progressing through the hobby.

 

In the good(?) old days there were only two steps – you could start with a kit and then move on directly to scratchbuilding although it’s true that traditional wood kits did employ a lot of scratchbuilding techniques.

 

Now of course the ladder is much longer:

 

RTR

ARTR

Easy Kits

More difficult kits

semi kits

more complex semi kits with an element of scratchbuilding

scratchbuilding but buying most of the fittings

“Pure” scratchbuilding

 

Many of these options were not open to us old timers but nowadays people can progress to the level at which they are comfortable and just sit there – which many do. This will inevitably result in a reduction in the proportion of purely scratchbuilt models.

 

So the hobby has changed, but in doing so it has given people more options if they do get bitten with the bug.

 

Colin 

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hello John. Peter has raised a number of valid points particularly concerning the type and quality of the materials available to the scratch builder. This is very relevant to   Johns   request for how scratch building has changed over the years.  Readily   available materials , such as  styrene , quality  marine ply ,  GRP material ,  polycarbonates , acrylics  even card  have  contributed  to the changes  in   the way   models  are constructed  but one of the more interesting changes that have impacted on  scratch building is the availability of resins for replicating fittings . Now  modeler only needs to produce a master and mould as many off as is required and  benefit  from  creating an exact copy.  Add to that the wide rage of adhesives and bonding agents which do make the modelers life easier.

[JC Uknz 1Participant @jcuknz1]

Never done anything but scratch build though happilly use ‘bits’ ready made to detail.

edit — tell a lie becuase I remember making waterline ship models during my childhood in WWII which I guess were a form of kit .. balsa etc.

 

You have only to read through early copies of Model Boats of the fifties or earlier books published pre WWII or even pre WWi when the Model,Engineer magazine was founded to notice the difference in modelling to today …. personally I find the detailing of the modern model off putting as it equals that of the professional modeller that as a boy I saw at the Greenwich Maritime Museum during lunch breaks from was it Roan School up on the hill along from the Greenwich Meridian station or something …. names escape me. That was back in the late forties.

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

I also look at the level of detail the real craftsmen within our hobby achieve on their models and think, “I could never do that”. However, it doesn’t stop me from attempting to do something to the best of my (limited) ability. As long as I have done the best I know I can, then I’m happy.

 

I try to make as much as I can, but there are times when I buy fittings that are outside my capability. On my current project, a Grand Banks cruiser, the only ready made items used so far are the wheel and the props – not including the radio gear, of course – everything else I made myself.

 

Hopefully some of the newer comers to the hobby will progress beyond the RTR, and climb the ladder Colin mentioned.

 

Peter.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

 also look at the level of detail the real craftsmen within our hobby achieve on their models and think, “I could never do that”.

 

 

oh yes you can, peter

we all have our strengths AND weaknesses, and it isjust a matter of honing those skills.

keep to your own comfort zone until you satisfy yourself that what you do is the best you can do, and then diverse.

[ArneSParticipant @arnes]

Why do some people boast about the time taken and cost of building a model? Surely this must put many potential entrants into this hobby off.

ArneS

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Why do you say that Arnes.

i think it unwise to keep it from people who wish to enter this or any hobby for that matter,that the more you become involved in the hobby, the more you can spend.

I think it unwise also to tell someone that they can build a model in a few days( although that is quite possible)

I used to teach Model ship building to students of all ages from 15 to 80 years old at what we call in this country “Night School” and it was amazing that some would come and demand a model close to exhibition/builders standard , build it on a sixpenny shoestring, and think that they could build it inside a week and bring it back to me the next week finished???It was also amazing that when you said to newcomers to the lessons that they would need a steel rule, a craft knife and a cutting board for their home use.a number would say”I’ve come here to enjoy myself, not to go home with homework???”

And some got quite annoyed when I said that that would be quite impossible even for someone like myself to produce a very detailed model in that time..

I think that people do need to and want to know how much and how long, and the most common question asked of me and probably many modellers on this site when they take their pride and joy down to the lake is “How long did that take to build mate” or “how much did that cost to make mate”

It does put people off but it only puts those off who think that modelling is a quick fix stop gap to the next failed hobby for those sort of people: those that swap their hobby as quickly as they swap their underpants.

Those really interested want to know how long it takes to build a nice model or even a masterpiece. I have been modelling for the last 50 years…….never once did the cost or the time taken to build a model “put me off” my hobby.

Lastly I don’t think it’s boasting to tell someone that you have spent £1500 on a steam plant for a model, £600 for a model kit, or that over the past 20 years I have spent probably the equivelant of buying a Ferarri car, on my hobby. It’s just a fact of life nothing more nothing less.

I don’t smoke, I drink very little and I don’t buy designer clothes unless you call Oxfam and British Heart Foundation/Cancer Research charity shops designer labels, but I don’t skimp on my hobby, what’s wrong with that and telling someone if they ask “how much did that cost”

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

oh yes you can, peter

 

Point taken Neil. There’s no doubt my skills are improving with each model, but whether I’ll live long enough to attain the levels of the masters is another question

I, too, have noticed that among the first questions asked by visitors to our lake, or exhibitions, is “how much did it cost?” or “how long did it take to build?”, the former mainly by young people, the latter by older ones. Kits are expensive here in Australia, for 2 reasons, the exchange rate, and the high cost of freight. On the other hand, I find that scratch building reduces the cost by a huge amount, yet another reason to scratch build.

ArneS, I don’t think mentioning the cost of a model, or how long it took to build, is boasting. Mainly it is in response to the questions mentioned above, and if someone is interested in becoming involved in our hobby, they need to know the costs associated with it.

Peter.

[Dr John BoothParticipant @drjohnbooth43899]

Hello again

The design and construction of scratch built models quite obviously depends upon acquired skills.

So as a supplementary question I would like to ask the members who do scratch build how they acquired these skills: are they

a/ The result of education and work related training

b/ Developed through a process of building kits and gaining experience by working through a series of more demanding projects.

 

John

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I , myself have developed my skills over the last 50 years.plenty of time to practice..but still learning.

However one of the greatest learning media is building kits.

So many times when scratch building you can think back on such models for inspiration on how you are going to produce that same type of fitting.

DON’T knock kits, anyone.

I still kit build just as much as scratch build and they DO help the scratch builder to hone his/her skills.

Also it helps looking at other people’s models either at the lake side or in the modelling mags, plus the tips and hints that you find in such publications.

We never stop learning, and (hopefully) the next model is always better than the last..it just takes time.

[Glynn GuestParticipant @glynnguest59245]

I’ll have to disagree with you gentlemen over the telling potential recruits to the hobby how much your pride and joy has cost in terms of time and money.

Far too many times have I witnessed a man, usually with his family, strike up a conversation with a modeller who then goes on to, well boast is infact a good word to discribe how they answer the question of the time and money their model has cost them.

You can almost hear the the mans thoughts along the lines of “bloody hell, I’ve got a family to feed, I just wanted something fun to do with the kids!”.  They probably then go off and quite happily spend on the latest electronic amusment for the family, feeling they have picked up a bargin, when the same amount would have got them started in this hobby.

I will contend that you can start in this hobby for around £100.  A sum that is much less intimidating than the top of the line kit and a luxuriously outfited workshop.  Thats what people want to hear if we are to attract more into this hobby.

GlynnGuest

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I just don’t understand your argument Glynn.

What is the point of telling a lie.

If someone asks ,then there is no point in telling a lie as to how much my model costs, just to appease them into false hopes.

Would you expect to go down to a golf club and for them to flannel you about the costs of setting up with equipment only to be told that once you had bought your clubs etc, you then have to go that bit further and spend 2 grand on joining the club.

Honesty in any walk of life is the best policy.

Yes, by all means if your boat costs you a tenner to build and 30 quid to equip tell them, but I’m not going to stand at a lake side and tell someone that my model cost me 30 quid, ( when in all actuallity it cost me £500,) just in hope that he might take up the hobby himself.

That would be foolish for anyone and every one concerned.

And as far as boasting is concerned…….isn’t  EVERY single modeller guilty of that ( and I include myself) as soon as he takes his model down to the lake….he is after admiring glances and the chest goes out when someone exclaimes “who built that” to which we always own up.

It’s in our nature to brag about our building prowess, and I don’t believe anyone when they say it isn’t.

Otherwise why would there be so many damn competitive show around and so much bitching at the judges when yours doesn’t ( as in anyone) make the grade.

It’s not boasting…just pride in your work.

And I will admit, I am proud of my work.

[Glynn GuestParticipant @glynnguest59245]

To Mr Howard-Prichard

Sir, I must insist that you retract your last post.

Nowhere in my post do I suggest that I would lie about the cost of a model.  My post was to say that when taking to a prospective recruit to this hobby, no matter the cost of your own model, you ought to explain that starting out can be relatively cheap.

I might also suggest that you withdraw the comment that EVERY modeller is guilty of boasting about their models.  I certainly do not nore, I add, do many of the excellent modellers that I personally know.  Indeed, it has been my experience that the higher the quality of the model, the more modest and unassuming the modeller.

 

GlynnGuest

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I would chill out Glynn If I were you, or you’ll give yourself a heart attack.

 

 I will clarify also that I didn’t ask YOU to,accuse you of,  or ask  anyone to lie about the cost of a model.

 

I stated that I, ME , NEIL HOWARD – PRITCHARD, wouldn’t lie to a punter.

 

If you have read it as me accusing you of lying, I apologise.

 

Neither did I, ME ,NEIL HOWARD PRITCHARD, say that  every modeller boasted..

 

I actually asked you and other modellers whether they did……something entirely different, So before you get on your high horse and feel indignant at what I say, read the posting properly.

 

We are all , in this democracy of ours entitled to offer our opinions, and I am sorry if you are so touchy you took it totally out of context and in a way that you feel hurt,( for which I again apologise) but , to be quite honest I don’t see anything in what I posted, defametory to your self.

 

I never accused you personally of any wrong doing.. or of lying or thinking of doing so,more to the point I said those things ( if you read it properly) about myself, and as such and as it is, charactoristically about me, I have always been and always will be truthfull about anything I do in life, and I see no point in giving someone false hopes by telling them something that is not what they want to hear.

 

.If you believe that it is the second sentence where I am accusing you of lying, than think again, Mr Guest.

 

I don’t actually believe that with all the costs of batteries, motor, coupling, rudder link arms and rudder, Radio control tx/rx and servos, battery chargers, timber,plans, glue, fillers,sanding sealers, epoxy,  paints and any fittings that you wish to adorn your model with, you actually CAN build a model for “around £100 ” (especially if someone is starting from scratch and buying all of those things in from new,) so I wouldn’t tell anyone that they could.I WOULDN’T give some one false hope.

 

In fact I find that scratch building to a high quality with highly detailed models is far more expensive than kit building, and that is my opinion.

 

SO  WILL I RETRACT MY POST!  NO,because I have said nothing wrong.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

In the interests of harmony, should our esteemed moderator and peacemaker, Colin, consider my earlier post to be offensive, then so be it and let it be removed.

As such, however, I do not feel as though I  have done wrong.. nhp

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

In answer to John’s question, my modelling skills were honed to a certain level through aeromodelling. I started, back in the early 50s, with a kit, but soon progressed to building from plans. I built a couple more kits, but soon reverted to scratch building. 

 

Similarly, when I became interested in boat modelling, I started with am Artesania “Amsterdam”, but again went back to scratch building. I have since built a Model Slipway “Sentinel” and a Billing “Nordkap”, but am once again building from a plan. As a result of all this, it could be said that some of my skills, such as they are, were acquired from building kits, in fact, I used the “Nordkap” to attempt plank on frame construction for the first time.

 

Glynn, I do not lie, if asked, about the cost of my model, but give an honest answer. I also explain that, even when scratch building, the cost of radio gear is a significant factor. Given that the radio is essential to any model, I firmly believe that scratch building is much cheaper than a kit, but it does require skills that a newcomer to the hobby may not possess. These skills can be acquired through kit building. It is no good playing down the cost of our hobby to a prospective member, but the cost, relative to other pursuits also needs to be mentioned.

 

I do agree, however, that 100 pounds, or $250 Australian, would get you started in a very basic way. Cheap 2 channel radios are available here for around $100, and these are perfectly adequate for a simple scratch built boat. Many newcomers would not want to scratch build though, and kits are very expensive here.

 

Peter.

 

[ARHParticipant @arh]

Neil said, I don’t smoke, I drink very little .

 

Ive heard you spill more,

[Rick FryerParticipant @rickfryer11539]

No wanting to get into an argument with anybody, but how do you know what a model really costs? Do you make a note every time you dash down to the model shop for a bit of plasticard, or some brass tube, or need just three more strips of wood for the deck and drive 15 miles (in my case) to buy them? Or how many tins of Halford’s red primer you’ve used on the hull? I haven’t a clue what I spend on my models. If I had it would probably frighten me to death!

 

Rick

[The Long BuildParticipant @thelongbuild]

I thought that a model’s building costs is only 10% of actual costs when asked by the other half.

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

Rick, I agree that most of us do not know the exact cost of each model but, speaking for myself, I do have a good (rough) idea. Like many of us who do not live close to a model shop, I try to keep a selection of materials on hand, and can usually source what is required from my stock. It’s not hard to work out the approximate cost of a particular model by totalling up the materials used.

 

As I mentioned previously, the most expensive items are the radio gear, the ESC and the propeller. In my case, I have 5 radios, plus some extra receivers, available, most left over from my flying days. Some of these are overkill for boats, but they are there so I use them. (The oldest is a JR X347 computer radio, bought in Singapore in 1990, and still performing flawlessly).

 

Peter.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

To pick up on Glynn’s comments regarding the cost of our hobby,

 

I can see Glynns point that when at the lake side members of the public are naturally drawn to the big impressive models that certainly would cost a small fortune to produce and that the average Dad would be intimidated by both the cost and the work involved

> >

The problem for the hobby is that during that brief conversation it is very difficult to get across the point that neither the commitment nor the cost has to be so high and that, as Glynn contends, it should be possible to start model building for as little as £100
 

i.e. basic kit for £40 add some glue and paints for another £15 and then a selection of cheap hand tools, the kitchen table becomes the workshop and with any luck a nice little boat is produced.

 

Paul

[Author]

Posts