How many people still scratch build?

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Pierre, I feel a bit “Rick-ish”, building a bog standard boat is ok,  but its the fiddling I like, and the experimentation, and once its done…..its on to the next.Currently, the lad wants me to build the “toyboata” from the Top gear program. So, car body, driven rear wheels, an outboard, and it has to float!  no theres a challenge  !!!    I will add it to the ever growing list.   I dont feel….accomplished…. unless I can knock out a few boats, or whatever, over the summer. Variety rules Ashley

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

cheers, dave. usually all down to club politics again. neil/

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Neil

 

I am not a member of any club due to wishing to avoid the politics but I’m still affected by the decisions that club members make. i.e. banning ic engines.

 

But to get back to Johns point about scratch building perhaps as Charles says is it the fear on ridicule that stops people taking the plunge, after all we have all come across elitist club members who have nothing better to do than count rivets and pick holes in other peoples work.

 

Perhaps we, as a membership, could encourage modellers to attempt their first scratch build without having the fear of rejection or ridicule.

After all even the best of us had to start somewhere and at that time we all went through the same feelings of worry that our work would not be good enough.

 

Paul

[David MeierParticipant @davidmeier28154]

Paul. If you are not a member of any club why does a clubs decision to ban IC engines affect you? do they gave governance of the lake?

David.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Many waters in the UK are owned by local authorities who generally frown on the use of IC engine boats these days because of a perceived risk of oil and noise pollution. Clubs that use these waters do so under an agreement which may preclude the use of certain types of boat. Such conditions would also apply to non members.

Colin 

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

with regards to elitism.Paul

My grandad said to me many many years ago.

“There’s no such thing as a bad  model boat,some are just a little better than others, and if anyone moans about your boat me lad, just ask them to go away and build one better”

I have, over the years stuck to that, and it is amazing just how many people you can make cringe when saying just that one liner.

We all have a talent if we can make a model from any medium, and that is something that we can ALL be proud of. Just believe in your self.

Neil.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi David

 

As our Admiral, Sir Colin rightly pointed out most model boating waters in the UK are owned by local authorities who became so frightened that a drop of oil might stain a duck they instigated a programme of banning IC engines on noise and pollution grounds (even though the average petrol lawnmower causes more damage to the environment)

And so faced with such overwhelming evidence that they were about to cause the next super tanker disaster and cover the county with petrochemical goo most boat clubs just rolled over and accepted the ban.

Hence it is now very difficult to sail a large IC powered model without travelling miles or being stoned and abused by the storm troopers of the animal rights groups.

 

But I’m not bitter.

 

Paul

[PierreParticipant @pierre]

Have to agree with Colin about Bob’s “necessary” list.  That’s not an essential list , rather a nice-to-have list.  You can make beautiful models with the minimum of tools, as I did when I was still at sea. The only thing I agree with is the last item, – an understanding spouse/partner!

Pierre

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

you can still sail ic’s at Fleetwood without feer of harm or hindrance. come and join in.

neil

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Neil

 

Your grandfather made a very profound statement.

 

Paul Thomason-Smyth

 

 

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Paul   one of the main reasons that local authorities/ clubs   are unable or unwilling   to accommodate  IC boats on various waters is one of  safety. Many of the models are very fast and there have been instances were safety has been compromised thus affecting the insurance for particular waters.  Pollution and noise was never a real problem were many IC boats operated. It can be were wild foul  has free rein or in densely populated areas  but many of the lakes that were once  adequate for IC  racing are no long so .

Dave Wooley

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Good Morning David

Whilst I agree that IC powered boats can be very fast and, in the wrong hands, very dangerous but by definition the same could be said about fast electric and steam powered models are potential bombs but they have not been banned.

I think that the banning of IC was a knee jerk reaction to a perceived problem of inexperienced owners (yobs and louts) buying off the shelf models and causing mayhem on the boating lake.

Such a wide ranging ban affected many more than the ignorant few, who will still sail their IC powered models no matter what rules are in place.

Could we not have had a licensing system which included an insurance check?

Paul

 

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Neil

 

Fleetwood is one of the best waters in the UK with plenty of space ,nice long streches of water and protected from the wind but it is just to far for me to travel.

 

Perhaps I should lobby Warrington Council to provide such a facility.

 

Paul

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

with reference to Fleetwood , and a much earlier post I made……….Our illustrious Wyre Borough Council, HAS  finally decided to fill in the “paddling” pool at the end of the lake where we could at least sail a boat when the large lake was too rough, and make it into a kids adventure playground.

Don’t get me wrong, all in favour of kids having playgrounds, but litterally next to the pool there is a 2 acre piece of grass land that would be far more usefull than making an old conctrete pool into a playground, with all the injuries that happen when kids play on concrete areas.

No discussion, and Wyre BC won’t even answer letters or comment to the local press about the matter…………..Who ellects these t*****s.

By the way Paul, a very very posh Hyphernated surname you have there.lol

Neil.

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Good Morning Paul   many waters around the UK have organized clubs operating many different types models and some are affiliated to national bodies such as the MYA , MPBA, or OMRA  others to more regional bodies. But an appreciable number of clubs belong to no national or regional organization. None the less all are subject to local authority guide lines regarding the use of a particular stretch of water. Clubs and by implication their members have to hold third party insurance. Regarding the use of power boats, if it is on an organized level, for example racing then that that club  would generally but not always  be affiliated to a national or organized regional body. Under these circumstances lake intended for such activity  would need to be vetted in order that it met all the safety and insurance  requirements for such events. On a more local level  the  local authority  will  require from any organized club  the type of models lightly to be used on that stretch of water and they can and do refuse applications  if they considered any activity  for example operating  IC or fast electric  boats  inappropriate for that water. As for individuals with no links to clubs and  sailing  models that are unsuitable for certain lakes or ponds then the that remains the responsibility of the local authority to enforce  the restrictions. Unless the stretch of water is either on private land or the club has sole use.

Dave Wooley .

[ARHParticipant @arh]

Well Guys ,Im another one that likes scratch building, youcan see my ships in the Gallery.  ARH

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

And very nice too, ARH.

I just love the old grab dredger Clearway.

She reminds me of Fleetwood of old when they and bucket dredgers were at it day and night keeping the channel for the trawlers clear.

A lovely model and a great and different subject.

neil.

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hi Ron always good to see your models ,  the art of scratch building  at it’s best.

Dave Wooley

[Len OchiltreeParticipant @lenochiltree67043]

Hi Guys,

I have only just waded through this thread and my twopennorth are, I expect we scratch builders are past our sell by date,anyone younger than 40 will I suspect have had no practical experience of making anything at School, either in wood or metal.So there are two generations who cannot help each other.

 

You should know better than mention the banning of IC engines on waters when Paul is listening you know his ticker is dickie.

 

Kits ah yes Lick it and Stick it Paint it and Sail it, nah I enjoy making bits that cost nowt.

 

Best wishes all,

 

Len.

[PITParticipant @pit]

I have taught girls design and technology for 25 years. They have all built projects using wood metal and plastic. So creative skills still alive and kicking in the Welsh valleys. All the best PIT

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

I think one of the saddest days for education was when schools got rid of woodwork and metalwork equipment, not hand tools but lathes and power saws.

 

When my son was at high school I went to a parents evening and one of the teachers I met used to teach me woodwork, he now taught design and technology which he said entailed drawing and making little boxes.

 

The poor man was sat in the former woodwork room, now stripped of all tools and work benches, with all of his skills and experience going to waste just marking out time until he retired by showing the next generation how to make paper boxes.

This dedicated man taught me how to use a lathe, set up and use a jack plane, even how to hold a hammer properly. In that very room we had built dingies for the sailing club and produced some great pieces of furniture….Now all gone.

 

It seems to me that all schools do these days is produce button pushing white collar management types, ideal fodder for further education but useless in the real world of skilled work.

 

It is so sad that we have reduced our children to having to learn practical skills for TV diy and cooking programmes.

In a world where it is easier to buy something than bother to make it for yourself has anybody in education thought what will happen when our generation dies off and all of the practical and trade skill die off with us.

 

Paul

 

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

That`s very true, Paul

 

When I left my Technical college at the age of 17…………..I could make anything!……..(cough)

 

During my three years training, I`d made ……..two wire rimmed tin mugs……tap wrench on the lathe….adjustabell spanner……..beaten copper bowl……wooden mould……..pattern making …….book case……….mirror frame………coffee table…….all the wood joints…..umpteen forged spikes…..gas welding…arc welding……engineering drawing……………..and then some!

 

I didn`t realise all this sort of stuff had ceased…………..that explains why we get people writing in…………..not knowing where to start!……..the poor things!

 

Bob

 

 

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

as a teacher of CDT for 22 years I went through that transition in the late 1970’s.

I had been teaching the  subjects of woodwork and tech drawing with a little metalwork, and then went out to Australia to teach basically that same ( but called Industrial Arts)

Came back in 1978 and got a job in Maidenhead teaching woodwork.

Within the year the government of the day with some richard cranium ( as Cabinet minister for education) who had left school at 15 decided that we would go european on our curicullum and change to Craft design and Technology, not taking into account that the kids coming into the school and/or those half way through their 5 years course hadn’ty a b****y clue what Design meant, and worse still, those teachers who had grown up with the “old system” had even less as they were entrenched in the “old school” of thinking( excuse the punn) and had absolutely NO retraining in this New fangled way of teaching craft.

Now a days the new intakes of CDT teachers are fully trained in the art, but the transition period of about 5 years was an absolute fiasco, and what government was in power at the time……the same one who bails out banks with billions of our public money and yet won’t honour the 6 million pound short fall that Christies Cancer hospital lost whilst investing donations in an Icelandic bank.

It’s not the teachers fault, but the government of the day that comes up with these wacky ideas without thinking them through!!

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Hi PIT,

with reference to your post , I agree that kids are using new skills and thought patterns, and computors:

But would they be able to use a laithe for intricate metal turning IF  that CAD computor broke down, or would they be able to rectify a mistake on their turned piece if they had programmed in the incorrect settings…..just being devils advocate here.

I think what Bob and Paul are saying ( and to some degree I agree) is correct in that the basic skills are not taught and this is where we fall down in the work place once kids leave school.

They then have to be retrained in an apprenticeship, and as the apprenticeships are now much shorter that they used to be, can we ever hope to train these kids to the fuller expertise of what their for fathers reached in a longer learning process.

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

The question could be put another way.
 1 What precisely are the skills needed to make a model ship from scratch.>>

2 Can these skills be self taught or do they need to be taught .>>

3 Do you need a fully fitted workshop to achieve the results? >>

4 What really is scratch building is there such a thing? >>

 I’m a great fan of   the methods used by Glyn Guest and in earlier times Vic Smeed. Many modelers of yesteryear cut their teeth on drawings from Vic Smeed, me included. Glyn Guest  builds remain popular   because  they  allows   young and not so young  to  build models from scratch using simple methods developed by Glyn,  which produce good models that are both inexpensive and require limited resources.  As a result encourage   modelers to think for themselves  and perhaps appreciate that building from scratch is really not about  what you have but more about what can be  achieve with what you have the two are not the same.  The bottom line of course is interest and enjoyment in the hobby.  How this is achieved is not an issue.  There is now like never before a huge amount of information available either in books, magazines or on line. If you can build a kit, you can scratch build. Perhaps the lack of activity in scratch building is down to what is on offer and the time factor.   Looking into the past for answers can be misleading but there are   pointers. . When I first entered into modeling in the 1950s there were few boat kits, so if your desire was to build a model   then the options were limited. You purchased the timber and built it for yourself.  As an observation,   in times of  recession   were people have time on their hands , many turn to cultivating hobbies. In the unpredictable 1970s[ remember the three day weeks}   there was the steepest rise in numbers building and operating some form of model boat than there  has ever before  , equally  in the recession of the 1980s  the  building of  scale models increased ten fold on the previous decade . Yet in the affluence of the years following the millennium there has been a noticeable decline in comparison to previous decades.  Whether these correlation hold water is a mute point  and I may well be trying to make 2×2 become 5  but  our hobby is  reinventing its self  and we may actually see in the years to come a rise in  the number  acquiring the time , desire and skills to return to the basics and build  from scratch. >>

Dave Wooley >

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