Encouraging the next generation of boaters

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

"Is it that people are more interested in simply making boats rather than sailing them"

in my case i think it is, Colin.

I sailed my newly built Liverpool class lifeboat once…………and that was the short sail accross the width of New Brighton lake only for it to nearly founder at the other side due to too little weight in the hull , no keel laid and too much topsail….

Ans that was the first time i had sailed a boat in 4 years……and six of my last boats never saw water…..as i get older i like the building rather than sailing in ever decreasing circls around a rough lake…….sadly i have joined the SOG's club.

But hopefully if i can commandere some other SOGs to help me lift in and out, the new one i am building will get a decent shake down.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Basically the situation is that we are where we are and that has to be recognised.

• Ageing demographic of model boaters: most of those I grew up with are no longer active or dead and I will be 75 next year so not a bundle of energy when it comes to promoting the hobby as is the case with many of my contemporaries. Who can blame them? Like Bob we carry on to please ourselves rather than promote the hobby. In my case I have other interests I want to pursue while I can.
• Lack of sailing waters and, as DG says, local councils are no longer on our side unlike the days when ponds were constructed specifically for model boating.
• The point made earlier about a break in passing on practical skills from father to son is very valid. Most people are now consumers rather than makers. If something needs doing they 'get a man in' to fix it rather than tackle it themselves. It's just the way things are these days.
• The number of shows has fallen off a cliff since around 2017/2018 and these provided valuable opportunities to meet other model boaters and support the trade by buying stuff from the stalls.
• The number of club events seem to have declined exponentially. To run a club successfully you need energy and commitment from youngish club members and these people just are not there anymore. I'm still interested in model boating but the commitment of my younger days has long gone, I have other interests now.

I don't think model boating will die but it will decline into a niche interest and as commercial support falls away its practitioners will revert to the original situation whereby if you wanted something you had to make it yourself, maybe exploiting new technology along the way. What comes around, goes around!

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop on 28/11/2022 18:45:54

[The Long BuildParticipant @thelongbuild]

One of the things we tried to do in the convention was to get the youngsters to build a basic boat, this was the Glynn Guest " UTE " which Model boats gave out free plans to those entering, I forget the actual numbers but believe it was less than 5 who attended with a finished model.

We also approached schools to try to get them to engage in the hobby with very little response .

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

The Chantry Model Boat Club members sail & motor our boats on a lake at the Bluewater Shopping Centre in Kent, there is a good team spirit doing several shows etc, and plenty of new older members joining, the yachting section will race through the winter, and we can enjoy a good old moan 3 times a week Wed, Sat & Sunday mornings.

Just enjoy your boating

Regards Ray

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by The Long Build on 28/11/2022 19:10:53:

……..

We also approached schools to try to get them to engage in the hobby with very little response .

My old school had – still has – it's own model boating pool….

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I came to the same conclusion some time ago – you can drag the horse to the water, but can't get it to drink!

So I no longer try. I got weary of hearing "I could never do that!" Of course they can't with that attitude!

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Bob,

I agree most people are aware of model boats/ships, they have been around for a while

I think when somebody says" I could never do that " they are trying to pay you a compliment ?

But could be understood as why would I want to do that ??

Your the master at what you do , but it's horses for courses

Regards Ray

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Interestingly one of the very frequent critisisms leveled at marine engineers, particularly in my earlier days at sea, was that they were regarded as "Jack of all Trades, Masters of none" To a degree I always saw this as a compliment because what it meant to me was that I was able to look at absolutely anything and try to think about how I could achieve the goal I was after. I have tackled many brand new skills over the years, frequently to simply achieve a single goal but what that did for me when I got to the higher positions was the ability to encourage and inspire my own team into thinking "We really can tackle anything with a positive attitude". Once you have created that thinking in your team it can be extremely effective. The danger is that you can create an elitist attitude if you are not careful, which can be very counter productive when dealing with others outside your own sphere.

When I finally got to the pinacle of the career ladder though and started to become more involved with areas outside of my own department such as hotel, catering, HR, entertainment etc..etc.. I realised that planning the drive to achieve a goal has to include the capabilities and shortcomings of the individuals you have available. While you can cajole and encourage someone to have a go at something new you also have to accept their limitations. There is no point in putting the shy guy on a stage in front of a few hundred people and ask him to do a presentation, just as much as there is no point in asking someone to strip down a piece of machinery when they have never held a spanner before. What I have learned is that there is no more sure way of putting people off than by suggesting "This is easy, why can't you do it?". Of course its easy to them, they have done it thousands of times before to the point they can do it without thinking. What they can't seem to do is to understand how someone who has never done it before would see it.

I've come across many people in my time at sea who are incredibly skilled and knowledgeable in particular specific areas. Sadly though they seem to have frequently been totally unable to pass any of their knowledge on because they simply cannot see things from someone else's perspective. Consequently they can't understand why the newcomers can't do it and they are completely incapable of helping them along. All you hear is "This guy's useless" or "He's not even trying", when in fact the problem is frequently with the skilled individual, not the newcomer.

So to continue this extremely interesting thread for which we have to thank Kimosubby for starting I would like to suggest the following.

Is the reason that craft based hobbies slowly dying out mainly as a result of the younger generation's lack of understanding and interest in such things or, could the inability of the older generation to communicate with them and inspire them to want to become involved part of the picture? I would suggest that hearing "I could never do that" might just be an easy response to the attitude "This is easy, what's wrong with you?"

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Hi Ray,

I can't say I am a master at ship model building. The top men in the field gets tens of thousands of pounds for each model, I consider myself lucky to get a few hundred. I am not a perfectionist, and neither are they "perfect in every detail. The "I could never do that" comments are directed to all of us at Northwest Model Shipwrights from guest visitors who usually declare how much they enjoyed their visit, but we generally never see, or hear from them again.

I am in the process of winding it all up, but this is mainly do to the fact that I am now extremely allergic to glue fumes, and wearing masks is too uncomfortable. I have been sorting out, and packing things away for several days now.

My new "non toxic" project is to write and publish a high quality book "Merchant Navy Swansong – 1860 – 2000." It will not be about model shipbuilding, but will be profusely illustrated by my own plans and photographs, with maybe a few completed model images in it, and cover the technical details of the ships, and histories of each one, with narratives and descriptive matter of life on board. And I aim to keep well clear of all the worn out subjects

I doubt if it will be all that much of a success because of the subject, but it is something that I want to do, and the income from Shelterdeck Publishing since we established it in 2014 has more than enough funds in its coffers to make a really high quality book.

It will give me something to do that does not require much energy (apart from exercising the brain), and is still connected to the sea. I have almost completed the first set of plans for the book, the steam clipper Hibernian of 1861. I inadvertently coloured the centre band of the funnel in red, and it should be white. No problem to correct this, as I colured it in on the computer using Photoshop

Bob

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I always felt that I was a very good teacher, and have written quite a lot of instructional articles for various model magazines in the past, including Model Boats, and also a full-length book, all of which sell very well, but there is very little evidence of many people taking it up. The handful that have tried, have managed very well and produced what I would say were excellent results. But since the digital age began, the simple truth is that most young people cannot see beyond their mobiles and keyboards, and are generally not interested in anything that takes a long time! And in my case, as a shipmodeller, most of the general public think that anything that floats is a "boat" even if it is quarter of a million tons! Some time ago, I produced a short practicum on building a collier brig, and it was very popular, but there is no evidence than anyone has actually tried to make one, and I still get "I could never do that!"  Here is the Utube presentation of the build

https://youtu.be/j5ESlw72qHY

Edited By Bob Wilson on 30/11/2022 14:28:26

Edited By Bob Wilson on 30/11/2022 14:28:47

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

I have believed for some time now that teaching is a two way process, not a one way process. I don't think that writing instructional articles and even books, no matter how popular they may be, can really be considered teaching as there is no feedback involved in the process. Even a YouTube presentation, no matter how good it may be, isn't really teaching. It is simply a one way presentation.

I was watching an interesting TV program only a few weeks ago whereby a retired woodwork teacher was using some workshop space somewhere to hold basic woodwork classes for, mainly people with either mental health issues or loneliness. The classes were apparently successful and attracted a wide range of abilities and age groups. I was impressed with the youngsters who were very positive about the process and were enjoying the classes. I'm sure the only reason it was working well was because the teacher was there with them, teaching according to the feedback he was getting from them. I'm sure he could have produced YouTube videos or written books and achieved very little as regards encouraging participation, but two way interaction is a whole different thing.

Now of course everyone will claim that they don't have access to workshops, time, money etc..etc.. but that was simply an example of how I see teaching being effective. Ray obviously does exactly the same thing with his grandkids so we can all teach with whatever facilities may be available to us.

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Maybe not with my Utube presentations, but in my Facebook group, it is definitely two-way with questions asked and questions answered all the time, I learn a lot and they learn a lot. That is the only place where I have seen any form of success, but sadly, many people will not even consider Facebook, even in a closed group – but that is where the real learning is. At North West Model Shipwrights, we often had "Workshop" talks where modelling was actually done at the meeting in front of them. I but I found that very frustrating, with numerous questions such as to "why do you do it that way?" This was not confined to my talks, but every demonstration by any member got the same sort of things.

As for my downloads and books, I cover every aspect of it in great detail, and the few who have tried it, have generally been successful. But the fact remains, most young folk are simply not interested –

Bob

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

"I but I found that very frustrating, with numerous questions such as to "why do you do it that way?"

but those questions were their way of showing interest and an inquisitive reaction………….why get frustrated by such questions……..

you have heard the saying "there is no such thing as a stupid question"

you seem very dismissive of younger people to be honest, as you find it frustrating when people DON'T ask questions, and yet frustrating when they do.

I find nothing frustrating about people asking me how and WHY I do something or a process in modelling, and the worst turn off for anyone whether young or older is when they sense that the person they are asking about why someone does a process the way they do, is when that person they are asking shows frustration and apathy to their questions,

Having been a teacher for 30 years in different areas, i never once found questions from students to be frustrating, and yey i knew teachers who did………and it was the teacher who suffered as his apathy showed in the students apathy towards the teacher.

And to be honest, i just cannot understand why you have such a beef towards others and the lack of interest when, from your own admission, you yourself are part of your own frustration.

Sorry, to have been so blatant and outspoken but you are your own enemy in the way you feel and think.

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I am not talking about potential new modellers, but those that I have known for the best part of 30 years, many of them who don't seem to have built anything at all, but are still club members. In my demonstrations, I was showing them how I do it.

And there are "stupid questions." No doubt about it. I am, continually asked what material I use for rigging my models by long-term members. I must have told them a thousand times that I only use wire, and have demonstrated how to do it at the meetings.

Yes, I am dismissive of young people as far as practical abilities are concerned. Not their fault, of course, that is the way it is now, so guilty as charged on that score!

You are wrong to say I am mu own worst enemy. I am not frustrated at all, I became indifferent long ago, and just follow my own path these days.

And that has recently included giving up model shipbuilding, and I am already feeling physically better for it. Not because I am sulking, or bitter and twisted or anything like that. I did tell you all a few days ago that I have just been diagnosed with an incurable lung disease (Bronchiectasis) that gives me bad coughing spells with dust and glue fumes. As I said before, I am NOT looking for sympathy, I am giving a solid reason! Neither am I battling with it – I am minimising the symptoms, by stopping using glue and wood dust.

I am now progressing well with my next book (nothing to do with model shipbuilding), and it has given me a new lease of life.

I feel that here in MB, I am just in the wrong place, as someone else has already said – this group is mainly about model boats – I specialised in model "ships!

I know full well that my character is flawed, but like everyone else, there is nothing that I can do about it , or even want to do to change it. It has served me well over the years. I never amounted to anything in real life, and I "dropped out" in late 1992 at the age of 48 aftyer 31 years at sea, and opted for less than the minimum wage, self employed, and left all the stress behind me. I have never been on benefits, and enjoy a quiet, simple life, and it is going to be even quieter and simpler from now on!

Bob

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Bob,

I'm with Richard and Neil on this one the children and teenagers these days have skills far beyond making physical object's like models, they have computer games that are very constructive, Minecraft where they can build a house or a whole city ! in a virtual world, just as much an interest at the moment as the 30 odd boats I have around the house built for my pleasure (and a few used for plans published to support the magazine)

Regards Ray

[James Hill 5Participant @jameshill5]

What a facinating read this posting has been over the last few days. So interesting to read all the different views everyone has and it`s difficult not to agree with all of them one way or another.

Somewhere down the line I think we all have a change in our attitude to most things in life. Whether it`s dictated to by health or a simple loss of interest, be it permanent or temporary. it happens.

I don`t think all is lost with the youngsters just yet. I have young ones living in our close and they are always coming in the garage to see what I`m making and asking all sorts of questions which is great ( one of them is only five years old, but he wants to know everything ) . Then, a few days later, they come in, proud as punch and show me what they`ve built, Ok , some of it may be Lego, but it`s a start The modelling seed may just have been sown. Sometimes you find the parents telling their children not to pester, but my answer is always, if you don`t ask the question , you won`t learn anything. So maybe their model making days are yet to arrive, much as ours did all those years ago.

Jim.

Edited By Colin Bishop on 01/12/2022 11:39:14

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

We will just have to agree to disagree. All I can say is that I am very pleased that I was born in 1944. I would hate to be at school today with all the pressures that the young have to deal with. I never really liked being at school, and never wanted to go to university. I went to sea because that was about all I could manage, and never regretted it, although modern technology towards the end was destroying the sea life for me. Everything of any importance I learned at sea, and the knowledge I picked up along the way enabled me to make the grade as a ship-model builder and nautical writer.

I am now entering the "winter" of life with no regrets, and trimming my sails accordingly.

I will end with my favourite quote:

"Life at best is but an enigma, and like children pursuing a "Will O' The Wisp,"so do we all pursue the illusive beacon light of a brighter and happier to-morrow – always hoping, never attaining, though striving ever until, wearied of the vain pursuit, at last we fall by the wayside and are forgotten."

Charles Clark Munn (1847 – 1917)

————————-

I am not depressed, I am not unhappy, I am just changing direction to suit the passing years!

A laugh is the best remedy for all ills!

https://youtu.be/S6_YO_aPp1Q

[Chris EParticipant @chrise]

Bob

I have always looked at the models that you have made with great respect & admiration. I know that yoy believe that anybody could make them but believe me that I see a flair in your modelling that somewhere between patience and skill I cannot see that I would match. If you have given up making models I regard it as a loss. We are all getting older & I guess that we must all adjust to that fact.

 

 

General

On the more general topic under discussion I do wonder if we are in danger of trying to distinguish model boating from general modelling and other dextrous skills. Whilst I have always been aware of model boats, as is any youngster who sees us sailing, it is also true that I came to model boats after I had been flying for a number of years. If model cars and drones had been available I am sure that I would have wanted to have a go with them as well.

It is the general interest in modelling that I would promote rather than push model boats in isolation. With any modelling you very quickly need to develop skills that are transferable and surely any modeller is interested in models in general. If youngsters find cars & drones more exciting, which I think that I would have, they are not lost to model boats but rather on a different path that could lead there. What trade support there will be is open to debate but that is just part of the change that happens in all aspects of life – and modelling.

I have always regarded scale model boats as an older modellers speciality & I don't think that has changed.

Edited By Chris E on 01/12/2022 10:51:12

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Can I ask that we ease off from making personalised comments please? The subject matter is extensive and we are all aproaching it from our own viewpoints and backgrounds. It is inevitable that we won't agree on everything but we should try to understand those points which we may disagree with and take them on board in the context that they have been made such as personal circumstances for example.

Colin

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

This thread has been quite interesting – though the initial question has not always been addressed!

Some have suggested that model boating is a lost cause – well, even if it is, I will be going down fighting. Several people have pointed out that children have not lost the urge to create, build and play with small replicas of the adult world – Lego and Playmobil attest to this.

There are, however, few or no readily available introductions to the hobby in the shops. I have tried to rectify this by making the old EeZeBilt kits as accessible as possible – but most of the interest seems to come from nostalgic adults, and I am drawn to the conclusion that the main problem is that if a boat is made, there is nowhere to sail it.

Even though purpose-built boating ponds have (mostly) disappeared,there are still rivers and ponds – but in my area these are often designated as 'nature reserves', and any access, let alone model boating, is forbidden. I have spoken to local councillors about the recreational advantages of boating and been quietly rebuffed – but there are still grants available for 'recreational assets' to be created – application by established sporting organisations only…

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Making some "water" should be a fairly simple affair – a large frame, wood or brick, say a foot high with a waterproof liner, and let the rain fill it, but I doubt if it will ever happen – This is the "digital age," and that is what holds their attention. Rivers and ponds are too dangerous.

[Kevin BeallParticipant @kevinbeall91525]

I think that while most of us grew up in an analogue world and now find that the digital world is very different. Lots of people had "hands on" style jobs where we had to pick up practical skills but this has changed. My current role is in a drawing office, and in the past would have involved very different skills to those used today, and our apprentices while unable to do real drawing can achieve results via a computer far faster and more complex than anything from the past…that's progress.

Part of the problem is that it is not a very exciting hobby, I enjoy the building and meeting other like minded people, but to a younger person there is not a huge amount they can take part in at the early stages. If we look at RC car racing that has plenty of people of all ages taking part, beginners can take part in a race and maybe improve and race against other youngsters. I suspect that if you set up a basic race course at you local park lake with 5 or 6 easy to control boats for anyone to try you would get parents and kids joining in, and you might just get a few who wanted to continue coming back.

The good news is that old skills are being taught again as there is money to be made from selling true hand crafted products, and the youngsters of today are just as passionate about carrying on those skills when they are given the chance.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I can agree with young Beally boy About the excitement on the pond.

I also think it’s important to have a boat or boats available for anyone else to try, not just the youngsters, but the mums and dads.

Racing is fine, but in the hands of the inexperienced it can be tricky for the wildlife, and unless you have the right water, can lead to banning fast action.

The bumpers are almost the ultimate in excitement and, being relatively slow, are safe to operate when there are other boats and ducks around. It’s a totally different experience, fighting on the water, and they are easily customised.

I may get around to making some expanded polystyrene/battery box/ small motor/prop kits to have in bags, available for a nominal sum as a way of encouraging youngsters who had a good time to actually build something.

Ashley

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

We have a monthly Club 500 meeting throughout the summer, which always attracts spectators. I have been thinking recently of building one and putting a low voltage battery in it, which would make a perfect beginner's practice boat.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

I love this old chestnut resurfacing, model boating never was exciting (except IC) but a challenge to make something that worked, with all the ready made stuff available that's more difficult, and has been said before dad's with a workshop/workroom have reduced drastically.

When I was at school back in the late 60's you were in a minority if you were interested in model making and had to try not to get labelled a nerd , 98% of the male school population loved sports, I was fortunate being in the school rugger team so I had no issues with kids taking the pi*s out of me

Kids need a bit of street cred , trainers today cost more than most RC boats !!

My 16 year old grandaughter has spent 2 enjoyably days making a model greenhouse kit, It must be in the blood

Regards Ray

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