Encouraging the next generation of boaters

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

So do you agree wth my comments?

Colin

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Yes, though I'm not confident about the return of my local show near Warwick. They organise the Model Engineering Show as well which went ahead and at which our club had a stand. Seems that multi-model shows are the way things are going.

Chris

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

The latest I heard was that Warwick International Model Boat Show would go ahead next year but we shall see.

I'm all in favour of multi model shows as i like to look at all types of modelling. I used to love the Brighton Show as it covered just about everything and had Daleks too! It was priced out of the venue.

I'm hoping that the Midhurst Sussex show will go ahead in February as it is not too far from me. Traditionally it is 40% model boats, 40% model railways and the rest other modelling. Realtively local but well worth a visit.

Colin

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

From what we can gather from conversations with the organisers the Model Engineering Show will be on again next March but back at the Harrogate Showground. Interestingly to reflect what has been said above it is intended to have a model railway show run in conjunction with a model engineering show. The model engineering show will include boats, vehicles etc. I personally think this is a superb format. I wish it every success and intend being there on the Kirklees stand.

Just a reflection on the thoughts above, when I first started doing the model engineering show with Kirklees at Harrogate around 25 years ago there were around 12-13 model boat clubs attend. The last time we went when it was at Doncaster pre-pandemic, there were two and the other club were saying they didn't think they were going to do it again.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing to me. You can complain about lack of facilities and lack of beginners kits but it could equally be argued that, if the demand was there the facilities would be there to meet it. No one is going to bother themselves producing starter kits if there is no demand for them and no council is going to spend money looking after a boating pond if they don't see a need for it. While Airfix and their likes will produce starter kits, and all credit to them for doing so, compared to the demand for them when I was a kid the market in comparison nowadays is almost niche.

I still believe the decline in most areas of craft based hobbies is changing attitudes amongst the general public, which I notice more in the UK. For instance when I worked in Germany in a privately owned and operated shipyard that built the latest and greatest mega cruise ships and supported an entire town's employment needs I saw an attitude that has been lost here. A pride in manufacturing and engineering and an attitude that engineers are deserving of respect and status. Manufacturing in the UK has declined dramatically since the 70's to the point whereby we have almost nothing left. Our economy has shifted significantly to a service based economy where the aspirations of youngsters is to get into banking or some form of financial services. Why? because they see that as a faster route to wealth.

When I was finishing school my class mates wanted to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers etc.. Nowadays it is all about financial services, IT, and becoming an entrepreneur. As for "Influencers" and professional "YouTubers" there's a whole new discussion. I really do believe that, generally, attitudes nowadays have become significantly more self centred and self satisfying. People want to work from home, but they want more pay to do it etc. This attitude has to reflect in the youngest generations. We may be lucky to come across a few who genuinely enjoy making something and I hope they get the nurturing and encouragement they deserve, but I believe they are in a smaller and smaller minority as time goes by. We will still encourage our grandchildren because we still remember our own childhood and what was important to us but will our kids and their kids encourage to the same degree? We may come up with one or two instances but they do not reflect the attitude of the greater population.

Just another example, when I went through my training I did two years at technical college, followed by a year at sea as a non contributory cadet, followed by a final year at college. This is after a secondary school where I did woodwork and metalwork as subjects to 'O' level. Then I went to sea as a Fourth Engineer. By that time I had experience of pulling machinery apart, learning how the basics of pumps, valves, engines etc. all worked and had seen them in pieces. I had learned how to use a lathe, a shaping machine, hand tools and I was a competent welder. I also had a qualification in Marine Electrics. The entire process was four years. When I became a Chief Engineer and saw what we were getting as trainees on the ships I almost made you want to cry. They had done 6 weeks at college, basic safety training and were then sent to sea to learn on the job. Theor total training time was around two and a half years. They had no idea what they were looking at never mind what they were supposed to be doing with it. A high percentage gave up. They honestly expected the job entailed sitting in the control room operating plant through a computer screen. I had endless conversations with them trying to get them to understand the importance of what was going on outside but many simply didn't want to leave the control room.

The bottom line for me is that we now put far too much store in financial services and making fast money than we do in respecting manufacturing processes and engineering. If I was having a conversation nowadays with a young budding bright potential engineer I would advise him t go to Germany. There he would enjoy status and respect, earn a good living and enjoy a working environment where he is surrounded by like minded people all striving to produce a quality product. I am sure some will come up with equal opportunities here but they are very few and far between. In Germany those opportunities are much more normal.

[Chris EParticipant @chrise]

I agree with most of what Richard has said except the bit about making financial services less attractive. The reality is that Financial services have brought an awful lot of money into the UK economy and employed a lot of people. As a country we need to control them, keep them and promote our expetise in this area.

The problem is not that F Services appear attractive as a career but rather that engineering has appeared unattractive. I am not sure how to tackle this, and it may already be too late, but we desperately need to make science, engineering and several other career options more attractive. This has got to begin at home and in schools but has also got to result from a change in the general public attitude to where these disciplines are regarded as at least equal to others.

The reality is that we cannot all be influencer billionaires, rap stars, football stars nor receive half million pound annual bonuses on the financial markets but the dreamers seem to believe that we can and nobody is prepared to say otherwise until it is too late.

 

 

Edited By Chris E on 25/11/2022 15:19:12

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

The big problem I have with financial services is that they are so volatile. I agree they have brought money into the country but I would have far rather seen that money come from manufacturing, which is infinitely more stable. Financial services all falls down like a pack of cards when someone flies a plane into a building in New York or a chancellor comes up with an unsupportable budget.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

Well done to Kim for starting this thread which has wandered off course slightly !! Our need for mass production of everyday items in this country is long gone. We of course make the expensive stuff, but nobody can compete with China and the other East Asian counties.

The UK attempt's at manufacturing RC equipment looked stone aged in comparison to the Japanese Futaba range, everything has been copied by the Chinese and it's bloomin good. .

The educational system here has looked down it's nose at practical skills for 50 years but a Degree in something doesn't guarantee a good living these days even if the parents can afford to fund it.

BTW I just bought an RG65 Dragon Force racing yacht to go with my DF95 it's lovely, you can guess where it was made

Regards Ray

[Stephen GarradParticipant @stephengarrad28964]

Posted by Colin Bishop on 24/11/2022 18:07:36:

The pond 'shortage' is a real problem.

Colin

I can understand that local authorities don't have the money or indeed inclination to fund boating lakes but what about canals?

There are approximately 2500 miles of navigable canals in the UK looked after by The Canal & River Trust, formerly British Waterways. Not all of them have big expanses of open water but it is static water, not flowing like rivers. The Canal & river Trust are apparently happy for model boat use as our local model boat club meets weekly at Saul on the Gloucester & Sharpness Canal & at Over Basin on the Hereford & Gloucester Canal. Have a look at the Gloucester Model Boat Club website.

On most canals the water level is only 12" to 18" below the towpath level & indeed some canals have slipways available to launch trailable full-size boats which would be quite useful I would have thought. Certainly in our travels around the system I have seen there are plenty of places where model boats would be able to have a good run.

Stephen

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Canals are an obvious place to sail, but tricky without a jetty-type access to launch boats.

We have quite a following at Bushy, mainly due to(obviously)the fabulous quality of the boats,or at least, some are similar to boats, but really mainly due to the fact that the boating pond is bang on the walk out of the car park and into the park proper.anyone who visits really has to walk past us, so there is good exposure to the hobby, now aided by our banner hanging off the pond park bench.

i have not visited any other club waters, but is this the case in other areas. On a nice day. Literally hundreds of people walk past us chaps boating.

not sure a canal situation would have the same exposure? Ashley

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Trouble with canals is that they aren't very wide and so not much leeway for the less skilled pilots, particularly at higher speeds. Also if a model gets caught on the opposite bank there isn't always access. Our local canals get pretty busy in the summer as well.

Our club lake is on a farm and so no passing walkers/traffic with the latter being the case with other waters I know of.

As has been said you really need to be interested before finding out about suitable waters/clubs.

Whilst it could be said that model planes are more hazardous we have more places to fly locally than to use boats. Some of the flying areas are Council owned but only require mowing along with adjacent areas, so less maintenance than a pond.

Chris

[Chris EParticipant @chrise]

Ashley

I know that whenever I sail my models I can generate interest but have yet to be inundated with new modellers. Given the almost perfect location of your pond, a large number of interested people, and an interesting collection of models you should be overrun with new modellers desperate to take up the hobby.

Is that true?

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I am a member of Northwest Model Shipwrights, that meet every month at Grimsargh Lancashire. Our membership has dwindled as well, and at the meeting last week, there were only ten of us, and only one model on display – an MTB. We used to have three times that number, but really, I prefer it in its abbreviated form, as we always have a good laugh, and general chat about nautical matters, but very few models are being taken along these days. It doesn't matter at all to me, because as a scratch-builder, the cost is very little. But even so, after 70 years of ship modelling, I have decided to reduce my shipbulding activities to virtually zero because of a general lack of interest, and a growing allergy to glue fumes.. But one door closes, another opens, and I am doing a lot more writing these days – I am, in fact, "self contained" so whether the hobby as a whole dies out, it will not affect me in any way simply because I can "take it, or leave it as I wish! –

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Posted by Bob Wilson on 26/11/2022 10:22:19:

But even so, after 70 years of ship modelling, I have decided to reduce my shipbulding activities to virtually zero because of a general lack of interest,

but i always wonder Bob, when you become dispondent because people don't comment upon your suberb builds, whether you are building for your own pleasure or for the gratification of others.

i have been building model boats myself for the last 63.5 years, because i love the hobby……….never ever had another hobby  [might have had interests such as classic cars and motorcycles, playing Squash, camping and fishing……but they were never hobbies] but i have never given up model boat building, just because others haven't shown interest or commented on my builds.

the only one who is "suffering" from that "dumbing down" is yourself, because you are not building as much as you did, but if you are loosing your own mojo for building, it is unfair for you to put the onus on others for not showing interest.

If people don't show interest in my model builds, so be it………..its my chosen hobby, and i still love it, and a lack of interest from others certainly won't change my attitude to following my chosen hobby for the last 63+ years…….not in my lifetime.

ENJOY YOUR HOBBY for what it gves you, not for what it gives to others!!……

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 26/11/2022 12:54:30

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Ray, never thought the topic would run so fast either.

Had a quick browse on the interwebby as I like to find the old magazines, Model Maker and such. Here's a new one to me and judging from its title it was aimed directly at the young model maker. What think you Colin? I've certainly noticed how few threads and active members that are still here.

Yes I know its for aeroplanes and "mechanics" but was there an equivalent boat one?

Kimmo

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Kimmo,

Yes it's stirred a few grey cells, sadly quite a few of the old stagers don't seem to post these days where are you Bob Abell, to name only one.

I loved the old Model Maker magazine format which covered Boats, Planes, Cars and Trains , once the publishers back in the late 60's realised each interest would support it's own title the old Model Maker was doomed !!

Model making was covered and a small boat plan in this Edition of the Eagle Annual quite healthy, but once anyone having an interest, the media did it's best to call us Anoraks

I saw your Nancy Grey barge yacht at Silvermere you made which Richard has, lovely job

Regards Ray

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

There were certainly pre war model boating magazines and books, many coming from the Percival Marshall publishers but I don't know if any were specifically aimed at youngsters. Model boating has been very popular since the 1890s, mostly with yachts, as is evident from the legacy of purpose built model boating ponds all over the country, many of which have been repurposed or are no longer in use. One would imagine that the numerous events held would have included young lads with their fathers and that would have been the major route into the hobby.

Just as an aside with regard to access to ponds. Back n the 70s I used to drive from Kingston on Thames up to Kensington Gardens at weekends and run my boats on the famous Round Pond. You could park along the nearby main road near the Albert Hall for free. Might be difficult to find a space now. The London Model Yacht Club do have local facilities for their members.

Here is an Edwardian scene with youngsters.

**LINK**

Colin

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Neil,

It is not as simple as that. We have quite a number of models here that have been definitely "reserved" and pending collection. But this state of affairs has continued over a number of months, with no further communication from the "reservers."

I am very mercenary about my models – I will make no effort to disguise the fact that I mainly make them to sell, although until recently, I did derive some pleasure from building them. But I never advertise them, and am continually getting suggestions as to what to make, and I don't charge enough etc. But at the moment, we have almost run out of space, and as it has never been my policy to "chase up" anyone who has reserved them, we are in a deadlock. But at the end of the year, I will be telling them all that they will go to the first person to collect and pay for them.

Now to the "hidden" reason. Fairly recently, I was diagnosed with Bronchiectasis, an incurable lung disease. It is unlikely that it will kill me, but I get breathless and have coughing fits if I inhale wood dust or glue fumes. I am not looking for sympathy in this, just giving a reason. It is actually uncomfortable to build models now, although I am hoping that will improve.

Since stopping modeling, I have even improved to a certain extent. As an alternative, I started doing more drawing, that is completely non-toxic, and gives me just as much, if not more, satisfaction than from building miniature models.

I am soon to have physiotherapy to further improve things, but have been told to avoid toxic fumes or crowded places, consequently, I am feeling rather better than I did.

Model shipbuilding has also been hampered recently by deteriorating eyesight. But when I am at the drawing board, with bright white card and jet black lines, I don't have the slightest problem seeing things.

I am certainly not blaming the lack of interest on others – times change. Neither am I "dumbing down!" I am developing drawing skills, and improving every day.

As I said above, most of the members of the Northwest Shipwrights Society seem to have gone the same way as me, with very few models being produced. But our meetings are always full of laughter and good cheer, with lively discussions on nautical matters. More progress on the steam clipper drawing below –

Bob

[John W EParticipant @johnwe]

hi there,

good read, good topic and very interesting reading everyone's views and this is a good topic (even though it has side-tracked off into other topics – which are just as equally interesting}.

One thing that is blatantly obvious to me and I don't think has been mentioned yet – is that some Club Members and some non-Club members' attitudes and answers to the general public when asked questions. I know we have all been there and have been asked the really 'niggly' questions which you know you are going to have from certain members of the public – how much did it cost Mr? How fast does it go? is it the Titanic – even though it's grey and has guns on. Where can I buy one for my son/daughter?

I have heard and witnessed on the other hand some Club Members when asked a genuine question about a model – go really technical as though it's an achievement by themselves and it is such a mysterious hobby with real difficult skills to learn – which has taken the builder years upon years to learn just to impress the person who is asking. You can see the look on the person's face of terror – especially if it includes asking about electronics. This in my mind does deter a lot of people – and puts them right off. I know there are lots of people who are going to shout – 'Oh no our Club isnt like that' but there is always one or two in the Club who do answer like that. These are the people who need educating about the hobby. I know what this is like myself …

I was on holiday a good few years ago and I visited a friend (sadly he is no longer with us) at his Club in the Black Forest and I arrived there and I was standing looking at the peg board to ensure there was a free frequency for me to use. I didnt have my model in my hand – and obviously a Club member came up to me and said 'Do you know what you are looking at' and then prompty began to explain to me all the ins and outs of the pegboard and transmitters and receivers….and not wanting to upset the person I let them ramble on! My immediate thoughts were I think I will give up this hobby.

John

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Quite right John. Then again of course there are those who seriously over inflate the value to impress when all they are really doing is putting off a potential newcomer! I'm sure we have seen them all.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

In answer to Chris E’s question that given the very good position of our pond at Bushy, have we been overrun with people/kids taking up the hobby. Well, of course no is the answer!

By the same token, I bleat on about our boating at the free-to-park, right next to the pond lovely jetty with minimal water drop and access all round the pond on “today’s boating” but do we see any current boaters turn up for a a Sunday morning?. No again. The odd person turns up now and again but by and large there is a ‘core membership’ of 4 of us, another two or three semi regulars who have either children or transport issues, and that’s that.

A 30 minute drive of Bushy Park covers a huge area…where are all the boaters? Is it that people are more interested in simply making boats rather than sailing them?

Ashley

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Is it that people are more interested in simply making boats rather than sailing them?

It has always been the case that people tend to lean either towards sailing or building and I have always been in the latter camp. I suspect few are 50/50. I used to do a lot of sailing and building in the 1970s, 1980s and into the early 90s when we had the MPBA Scale Championships with dozens of clubs competing to provide interesting sailing courses on which we could really test our steeing skills and the handling characteristics of our models.

After that I took a break to do some full size sailing and when I returned in the early 2000s, the Scale Championships was on its last legs and almost everyone seemed to have decided they were happy just to sail rather aimlessly around the pond and stand around chatting and having barbies etc. Competition had given way to social gathering and of course it is a case of 'whatever floats your boat'. As far as I was concerned this was OK for an hour or so but afterwards I simply got bored.

I actually enjoy fitting out the working stuff in my models and testing them but once they are set up I tend to move on to the next one so spend more time building.

The other big factor is that many if not most of 'experienced' model boaters are reaching or have reached the age where physical decline is affecting the ability to launch and retrieve models which becomes rather difficult when your knees go. And there is all the hassle of loading up the car etc. Plus it is amazing the way that boats seem to get a lot heavier than they used to be although they still float at the same waterline. Somebody ought to do some scientific research on that.

Colin

[Chris EParticipant @chrise]

I am so surprised that Ashley isn't inundated with new sailors.

How far are people travelling to sail? A large catchment within "a 30 minute drive" surprises me. In 30 minutes x 2 would mean that I could easily burn £15 diesel. I wouldn't turn up very often in those circumstances. One of the factors that means I sail in my village pond was the distance of local clubs and the parking situation when I got there. There were other factors but they are not relevant here.

This might all be self perpetuating. Lack of clubs, restricted sailing waters where few people actually sail for a couple of hours a week, a mainly old group of modellers, local model shops closing down etc etc all reduce uptake. I know that we have the internet but wanting a single piece of, for example, wood can incur horrible carriage costs and who didn't get inspiration from a regular look around the local model shop. It is also difficult for a beginner to know exactly what they need & I still get it wrong after 40 years.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I play in 4 bands, I drive to three of them, I obv have to drive to boating to enable bulkier boats to be sailed, and I cycle to the dance class I run.

If you “do” Hobbies, there is a cost involved. Just think of the cost in playing golf.

What is a do-able journey for these things?. I would have thought 30 mins is not unreasonable. Colin is an hour away from Bushy, so that a more serious drive.

As for boats getting heavier, it is to do with gravity. A well known fact, as the world gets older, gravity increases, meaning you fall over more, have difficulty getting up, and boats weigh more 🤔

Ashley

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

I agree with Colin as regards sailing/building. My main part is building and I will enjoy taking the models down the lake, about half an hour away to try them out. After that they will get some use but not a lot.

I did buy a number of RTR & ARTR boats and yachts to get used to handling them and racing but unfortunately the latter stopped during Covid and didn't really get going again. I've only been down a couple of times this year to see other folks and their models but likewise I soon get bored running my RTR/ARTR boats. Probably this boredom kicks in pretty soon with newbies to the hobby buying ready built boats and they have no inclination or the skills to get into building.

Chris

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

This is an interesting thread, and it does raise important points, but I feel that it concentrates on the impact of fewer new faces actually knocking on our door.

If we want to get more people interested in the hobby, we need to look OUTSIDE the hobby, to consider why people are less interested in boating BEFORE they consider the hobby.

Looking at a couple of the 'toy supermarket' web sites, I see that there are bath toy boats, and Lego construction boats, but a complete dearth of the pond yachts and small clockwork/electric boats which used to be such a feature of 1970s toy shops. This whole section of youngster's playthings seems to have vanished. I guess that it follows from Colin's point that there are few local ponds and boating pools available in children's play areas. No point trying to sell something that cannot be used…

This is not just a feature of increased urban density around the big cities. Note this news item from last year, where a council tied itself in knots trying to prevent model boat use of a pond for no apparent reason:

**LINK**

There appears to be a general presumption at all levels of government against model boating. And I can find no mention of the sport in government recreation plans – though I must admit I have not looked deeply into the various white papers…! Given this apparent dislike, it would be useful if authoritative bodies for the hobby were able to make representation to the relevent departments (sports and recreation, education?), raising their awareness of what is happening and getting them to issue guidance on the need for pond access for youngsters. Model flyers have done this in order to keep their fields. If there is a lack of interest/experience at this level it will be a rare child indeed who is sufficiently motivated to find a local club…

I am certainly not the only person to notice the decline of local pond sailing amongst youngsters. I don't know if Model Boats has noticed this initiative?

https://www.worldpondyachtday.com

You can see that here we are not specifically talking about modelling for children, but simply giving them the experience of sailing a model boat. It seems to me that if they are not dissuaded from going anywhere near the edge of a pond when young, there will be many more candidates for the more advanced levels of the hobby when they are older….

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