Bell wreck at Barmouth

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Bell wreck at Barmouth

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5 March 2009 at 15:26 #19064
Bob Abell 2
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@bobabell2
There is a museum at Barmouth called the Bell Wreck Museum.

The ship was carrying a cargo of marble and a Bell and is dated as 1677

Just for added interest…..All the cannons, muskets and pistols were found to be loaded and ready to fire!

All the cannons were a type of breech loader………………….eh?…….1677?

All the cannons on HMS Victory were muzzle loaders……..eh?…….1808?

Doesn`t this strike one as odd?

Any experts out there who can explain why the Victory had muzzle loaders?

Just a passing thought………..Bob tidying up
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5 March 2009 at 15:26 #3312
Bob Abell 2
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@bobabell2
5 March 2009 at 15:38 #19066
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Bob

Its easy to explain why Victory had muzzle loaders but why the ship in 1677 had breech loaders is not so easy to fathom.

I shall have a look and try to figure this out.

Paul
5 March 2009 at 15:48 #19067
Bob Abell 2
Participant
@bobabell2
I think Mary Rose had the odd “looseblock” type breech loader…………..eh?

And then……………..What about those crazy muzzle loading guns on the Victorian Battleship just recently posted by Ashley………..can`t recall the name but it was something like the The Inflexible or the Intrepid

Bob
5 March 2009 at 15:53 #19068
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Bob

According to the historical record the ship had one wrought iron breech loading gun, this type of cannon was called a Basliisk and it this form was first introduced in the 16^th century.

The cannon on the victory were muzzle loaders because the science metallurgy hadn’t advanced enough to produce steel that wouldn’t explode when used as cannon and they couldn’t machine cast iron to create breech loaders.

Paul

When are you going to Ellesmere?
5 March 2009 at 16:01 #19069
Bob Abell 2
Participant
@bobabell2
The ship had at least four breech loaders………………..They are on show in the museum…….and were about 2″ bore…….with X-rays showing the grapeshot etc

Thanks for the Victory info……………I would have thought that breech would have developed in the following 130 years……………..breech loaders with thicker barrel walls?

But…………..Obviously not!

Bob……………Shot down in flames!
5 March 2009 at 17:56 #19072
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Bob

The cannon builders of the time did try thicker walled guns but then came up against the problem of extra weight…ergo the ship could carry less cannon…..catch 22

Your not shot down in flames and this is a great subject to delve into.

Paul
5 March 2009 at 17:59 #19073
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Bob.A lot of the VERY early cannon WERE breech loaders. A sort of tankard shaped affair, with a tapered rim, this was preloaded and stuffed in the breech end and held there with a wooden wedge. The advantage was a much quicker rate of fire, however the gas-seal was less than perfect and got worse after every firing. A problem that dogged breech loaders until the late 1800s, witness the Armstrong 110lb guns on the Warrior, that were known as “double enders”, for their propensity for blowing the breech screw out. The guns on your ship were likely to be small ones at that time, and i believe the breech systems in use were ok for smaller weapons. The rifled-muzzle loading system in use in British ships in fact produced a superior gun until fairly late on, for a variety of reasons, amongst them the use of gunpowder, and an unsatisfactory breech sealing system Ashley
5 March 2009 at 20:23 #19076
Bob Abell 2
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@bobabell2
Paul

Only just seen your microscopic footnote!

I`m going to Ellesmere on Saturday and if necessary…………..Sunday an` all!

Wiil arrive at 11 ish and stay till about 4 ish………(Ducky is calling today also)

I shall be wearing my scabby weatherproof jacket…..club badge…club cap……Leica Camera at the ready………and a happy smiling face

Hope to see you there and anybody else from ………………..The Merry Men of the Net!

Bob
5 March 2009 at 21:06 #19077
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Bob

Just for information here is a photo of HMS Inflexible

And a drawing of its gun loading system (sorry its not very good image)

I hope to get to Ellesmere on Saturday and I shall look out for you

Paul
6 March 2009 at 07:37 #19086
Bob Abell 2
Participant
@bobabell2
Hello Paul

Thanks for posting the HMS Inflexible pix

That big guns is really awesome!………………..How did they get the powder in at that angle?

I wonder why we made such ships?………………Who was the intended enemy in those days?

See you on Saturday…………………..Bob
6 March 2009 at 17:21 #19100
Rick Fryer
Participant
@rickfryer11539
Bob,

The Italians went one better and commissioned 100-ton 17.7-inch guns from Armstrongs for the Duilio and Dandalo. The British were so afraid of what these huge guns might do in the Mediterranean that they installed two of their own in Gibraltar and two in Malta for coastal defence.

One of the Maltese guns, at Fort Rinell, is still in existence and is well worth a visit if you are out that way.

Rick
6 March 2009 at 17:28 #19101
Bob Abell 2
Participant
@bobabell2
Thanks for the picture Rick…………Interesting colour scheme?

Bob
6 March 2009 at 18:03 #19104
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hello Bob

Re your question as to why we had such ships.

Back then the British navy was the most powerful and therefore the most feared military force in the world, so having these ships maintained the fear and helped us keep a grip on our empire and trade routes.

Who was the intended enemy?
Any one from a entire country to a tribe of pigmies we just didn’t care who we visited with gun boats.

Paul
6 March 2009 at 18:44 #19108
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Paul, as a generalisation thats right, but I think more specifically the French, and secondly the Americans were the preferred enemy. And the Russians at this time of course, and the Germans had an eye on things and as you say the Chinese had to be kept an eye on with gunboats, and all those african type colonial setups, and the peruvians……..

Yes, perhaps you are spot on after all Ashley
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