model ship pyrotechnics

[melvin hallParticipant @melvinhall89458]

Hi,

I am building a model warship and am currently working on making working guns.

I have seen photos and videos of model ships at displays etc with working guns and other pyrotechnics and was wondering what was the legality of this? is a special licence required?

Regards,

Melvin.

[melvin hallParticipant @melvinhall89458]

boat pyrotechnics legality

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Melvin,

Using pyrotechnics by individuals is pretty much a no no in the UK and has been for many years. Certainly you would not be able to operate your boat on any water with public access although if you have your own private lake this would presumably be OK but it would be entirely at your own risk as it is unlikely you could get insurance against any claims for injury that may be made against you.

There were some experiments back in the 1970s but pyrotechnics can be unpredictable in their effects and the modellers considered it to be too risky.

The main exponent of pyrotechnic shows in the UK is the Portsmouth Model Boat Display Team who put on demonstrations which are subject to stringent public safety requirements. You could try contacting them for further information, their website is **LINK**

You may have heard that things are rather less safety minded in the USA where there appears to be a thriving practice of warships armed with BB guns attempting to sink each other. This entails, for example, Hood and Bismarck lying alongside each other exchanging broadsides in the manner of Nelsonic wooden walls which is a bit unrealistic to say the least.

If you simply want to simulate gunfire then take a look at the HMS Iron Duke topic on the Model Boat Mayhem website, particularly the most recent pages which show how a mister has been successfully used to give quite realistic effects: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43803.0.html

Colin

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

I’m not sure what ‘pretty much a no-no’ means. Is there a legal ban? If so, what is the Act?

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

A quick goile turned up the following two texts regulating fireworks in England, Scotland and Wales:

The Fireworks Act 2003 (**LINK**)

The Fireworks Regulation 2004 (**LINK**)

I haven't read either, so have no comment or answer on the original question.

Mattias

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

And, apparently, also The Pyrotechnics Articles (Safety) Regulations 2015 (**LINK**).

Mattias

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

There appears to be no specific regulation that applies to the use of pyrotechnics in model boats, the nearest that I could find relates to half / quarter size cast model cannons where it states that fireworks or thunder flashes require no licence but the use of black powder requires the barrel to be proofed and the user to have a shotgun licence.

The overriding regulations would seem to be The Fireworks Regulations and [as Mattias found] The Pyrotechnics Articles (Safety) Regulations 2015.

The main problem that I can see is that to make pyrotechnics small enough to fit within, for example a model battleship gun barrel, is that any pre-assembled pyrotechnic or firework would have to be stripped down and re-assembled in such a manner that it could fit inside the small bore barrel.

I would be concerned that such reconfiguration with a smooth bore barrel might be easily classified as a shotgun and that a rifled barrel would be a pistol or rifle.

I would further worry that the stripping down of pre-assembled fireworks or pyrotechnics and resemblely in alternate format might fall foul of the anti terrorism legislation.

[Charles OatesParticipant @charlesoates31738]

I think you would also need insurance for public liability. ( Eminently sensible) I doubt you would get this unless you could show you had knowledge and experience in pyrotechnics.

I'm old enough to remember boys messing about with fireworks, the things we did were daft. I also remember a mate who lost a finger. Surely common sense says to leave to leave explosives alone whatever the rules. Unless this is your profession I recommend you forget it.

Chas

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I too have seen some unfortunate incidents when using pyrotechnics in model boats. On one occasion a charge supposed to make a small hole in a model to sink it with a simulated torpedo hit actually delivered an explosion many times more powerful than intended and it was lucky nobody was hurt. In 1975 at the Naviga championships in the UK a spectator had his jacket set on fire by a stray pyrotechnic during an invasion display.

That is why I suggested contacting the Portsmouth Display Team as they will know exactly what the current regulations are.

Colin

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Having had a look at the current regulations cited, they appear to be primarily concerned with the commercial manufacture and sale of pyrotechnics – and most of this is about categorisation and labelling. There is little or nothing about hobbyists making their own systems. In fact, blank ammunition is specifically exempted, and I have seen model tanks with blank-firing guns…

One example might be a 'battleship broadside' device I designed in the dim and distant past, which worked by injecting a gas/air/talcum powder mix into a small container and setting it off with a spark. The resultant deflagration was piped out through the gun barrels – the idea being to emulate the large gout of flame and smoke from a WW2 battleship. It is questionable as to whether that was actually an explosion – certainly the aim was a long burn…

In practice, I think that regulation of operating model guns is likely to be an issue for local bylaws rather than central legislation. Many local parks have bylaws prohibiting the setting off of fireworks or any such like 'infernal machines' which might be considered a 'public nuisance', and they would be the first people to get involved if any problems or complaints arose. I suggest that Melvin Hall decides where he wants to sail his model, what he actually wants to install in it, and contacts the local body responsible for administration in that area to ask how they would feel about it…

[kenneth gaultParticipant @kennethgault51984]

Hi this is almost certainly covered by the fire arms act. I believe that even firing an inert torpedo from a radio controlled sub is not legal as you are firing a projectile. If this is the case then things that go bang must also be covered. I have see articles on stuff in the states where battleships fire .22 blanks, can not see that ever being allowed in the UK

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by kenneth gault on 15/09/2016 13:35:30:

Hi this is almost certainly covered by the fire arms act. I believe that even firing an inert torpedo from a radio controlled sub is not legal as you are firing a projectile. If this is the case then things that go bang must also be covered. I have see articles on stuff in the states where battleships fire .22 blanks, can not see that ever being allowed in the UK

For something to come under the Firearms Act, it depends how you fire things. My compressed-air spear gun fires a fairly hefty projectile – that's not a firearm, though it would make a bigger mess of a target than any .22 round. Air guns and paint ball weapons (up to a certain power) are also not controlled under the Firearms act, and blank firers and ammo are legal to own without a license in the UK. Nail-guns using blanks are also available.

In general, the Firearms Act covers devices which project an object with a specified amount of energy using an explosion. I don't think that anyone is talking about firing objects out of a model Battleship with cartridges here. And if you think releasing a torpedo is illegal what would you say about model aircraft with working bomb-releases?

Modelling is such a minority interest now that I don't think any such laws specifically cover what we might do. That doesn't mean that anything is going to be legal – there are various catch-all laws such as 'Public Nuisance' which could be bent to cover most activities, and no doubt something could be managed under Terrorism legislation. As I said earlier, the key thing to do is to check with the local authority that they are happy for you to do what you want…

[Byron Rees…(Ron)Participant @byronrees-ron]

Hi All,

Apart from building models I am also into Amateur Dramatics and for my sins am often the one who has to devise and fire any special effects , bangs, smoke etc.

A licence for any of this is NOT required and you can get and use some amazing stuff for effects, like smoke powder, coloured flashes and so on. When a loud bang is needed we use something called a Squib, which is a small thing like an electronic capacitor in size and you can buy several different sizes. It is fired by a burst of electricity in the 4,8 to 9 volt range. To make them louder we place them inside metal cans or even large metal bins on stage, but I have made metal tubes of quite small diameters that also work well.

Try searching for Stage Pyrothechnics online and a good firm which I use is Le Maitre.

Cheers……..Ron.

[melvin hallParticipant @melvinhall89458]

Hi,

Thanks for all the advice, cheers.

Melvin.

[Robin BodgerParticipant @robinbodger80379]

Blank firing was all dependant on side venting, or barrel venting, talk to ww2 reenactment people, laws have changed.

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Which changes are you thinking about? The fundamental law is still the 1968 Firearms Act, and though there have been regulatory changes (typically varying ages for using weapons) I don't think there has been any fundamental change in definitions.

Looking at the legislation it is obviously aimed at controlling lethal weapons. You would have to bend the legislation quite severely to try to apply it to a model, and if the model in question was not designed to fire projectiles it would be very hard to make any firearms legislation apply.

Here are some of the change examples:

**LINK**

and here is a venting discussion on an enactment group

**LINK**

If I wanted to stop a model boat with pyrotechnics on board, I do not think the Firearms, Explosives or Fireworks Acts would be very useful, and I would rely on Nuisance legislation or local bylaws…

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