Todays Boating

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Ashley

Great job ! having them together is like time travelling ? Does your ramming bow strengthener act like a sub's hyrovane and make the bow dig in ?

Regards Ray

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Ray I believe it may do, hence the slight stern heavy trim.

​It is not an issue until you put more (excessive power, for the scale) power on, which is sometimes required as these smaller models get trampled by geese taking off etc etc and need to get out of the way quickly sometimes.

You can read all you want and look at photos all day long but seeing models of the same scale next to one another brings home the differences. I remember seeing a display of same scale model tanks at Bovingtonj, and the difference is quite noticeable on some of them.

Ashley

[Andy CParticipant @andyc56856]

Very nice, as usual Ashley

Andy.

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

Looks great Ashley.

I like the Nelson that's a nice job too.

Brian

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

The Nelson has had its bottom seen to, as upon inspection there seemed to be some cracks developing underneath. Nothing big, but wet wood swells and opens up a bit more and so on.

​Despite that is is superior stuff and as a composite is very stable, wood and hardboard definitely have different expansion rates exacerbated by the relatively big thicknesses underneath. The bottom board is 1 inch and the second layer at the rear (that gives the shape for the prop wells etc) is an additional 1 inch. The sides are about 65mm deep hardboard, sitting on a pine step and backed at the bottom by a 12mm stringer, You would have thought that this industrial engineering would be as solid as a rock, but sadly…. hence the fibreglass outer skin.

​The Glorious started to suffer the same so I put an "armoured belt" patch of fibreglass only central like, and I have had no further probs with this. The hull is so much shallower though. Ashley

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Nice pictures, Ashley

Sans looks a little too white?….eh?

I prefer Battleship Grey for the menacing look

Just my opinion, old chap

Bob

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Bob. I see what you mean about the Sans, but in the flesh the pale stone deck is a bit darker than it appears in pictures. Having said that, the amount of white is as it should be. It is what makes Victorian warship's what they are.

Trouble is, almost all warship models are grey, it is nice to see a black/white/buff or even the nice pre-war hot climate white/buff colour scheme.

Don't worry about your opinion Bob, I have no qualms about people having an opinion. If we didn't, all the boats would look the same, eh ??

​For a future "same scale" ship I may choose a very early grey battleship and paint is properly in the DARK grey that these ships wore, for something different. The grey was toned down for the first world war due to a perceived shortage of dark colour pigment.

​I should add the SansP to the last picture , the Glorious was longer than the Nelson, and the mighty Hood was some 140 foot longer!!! or about 2.5 times longer than the Sans!!

Ashley

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

I think it looks just right. It gives a good contrast. It may stand out and remember soldiers wore bright red. Nice for aiming bullets at!

Brian

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Ashley (and others),

You might like to cast your eye over Kipling's spoof 'Ballad of the Clampherdown' which relates to the Sans Pareil period. I found it quite amusing.

**LINK**

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 10/09/2017 17:59:11

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

 

Colin. Read that, very good. |Like the comments and explanation after.

​The bit about the gun barrels lasting 75 shots and drooping may sound like they were inferior but I believe it was on par for most big guns of the period.

​The Graf Spee (a book about which I have recently read) says the barrels were only good for 300-350 full charge rounds before being dangerously worn, and during the latter stages of the battle with Ajax Exeter and Achilles at the plate the gunnery officer was taking readings from the range finder and adding 10 kilometers to it….

​Aslo apparently at this battle the Graf`s 15cm (6 inch) guns fired some 300+ rounds and did not score a single hit on any of the British ships or even come close to it!!

Some new more extra pretty snaps of the sans from this morning. Ashley

 

 

Edited By ashley needham on 10/09/2017 18:21:51

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Very nice, Ashley

Nice photos too

The little side cannon, look very irrelevant?

Bob

[Ian JopsonParticipant @ianjopson21383]

Ashley,

I know you mentioned it, but can't find the post at the moment, but was is the eventual freeboard of SP? I ask because, over the weekend I've been measuring up my next but one project, and at a 24.5 inch length the freeboard comes out at 10mm (forgive the mix of dimensions, but I still think imperial but have to work metric). Would you think that I could raise it slightly, being as it won't be a 'scale' model but only a representation?

note to self – must get onto Deans and ask what freeboard is for their 'Humber' kit.

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

Posted by Bob Abell on 10/09/2017 21:21:49:

Very nice, Ashley

Nice photos too

The little side cannon, look very irrelevant?

Bob

In the 1890's, big gun main armament were not rapid fire. Smaller craft, possibly carrying the new-fangled torpedoes, could get near between shots if not hit at long range, and hitting something small at long range was iffy at best. The "irrelevant" weaponry would suddenly become very relevant when faced with something small, but not close enough for the nordenfelts.

One of the guiding thoughts on capital ships of the time was that low freeboard meant less target above water. Water coming over the deck was a fact of life. On a small scale model, where a 10mph breeze is a hurricane of almost biblical force, a lot of care and attention has to be put into ensuring that the water that comes onto the deck can drain to the outside rather than inside.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Bob. As Malcolm says, in addition the fighting range was so close that the smaller guns would have a definite place in sweeping the decks of men. They called it the "hail of fire", and one of the revolutionary aspects of the Dreadnought was that Fisher correctly thought that an all big gun ship would fight at long range, and not need smaller 6 inch or woteva guns. The 12pdr`s fitted were for anti torpedo use but he also correctly thought that the best form of defence against these were escorting destroyers.

In the second world war I think the entire battle fleet could have had usefully had their secondary armament deleted to make room/weight for more anti-aircraft guns and the holes armoured over.

Ian. The freeboard is about 16mm, however this is not an accurate scale figure (its about right) and I have it ballasted to a few mm below the boot topping to give me a bit more. Unfortunately at this size, when water comes on deck it just stays there (as I have found) despite that there is no bulwark. My Devastation is also low freeboard, but being a lot larger means the shipped water mostly runs off. Making a scale model is one thing, but at 10mm your decks would be almost permanently underwater. Unfortunately with such a small model the bows do not have enough flare to divert even the smallest amount of wash.

Ashley

[Ian JopsonParticipant @ianjopson21383]

Thank you for the guidance, Ashley, I thought that might be the case. Looks like I'll have to increase the hull height and try not to go too mad without making it obvious. (and of course, only run in very calm water).

ps, just received word back from Deans, the Humber is 12mm freeboard.

Edited By Ian Jopson on 11/09/2017 14:53:10

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Spent a great day in London yesterday with Mr c Bishop, visiting the NMM in Woolwich to peruse plans for project W.

​A massive bonus was being able to photograph areas for further study. This cannot be understated, we spent 2 1/2 hours there and could probably have spent another 2 hours studying the plans. It is quite something to hold in your hand (very carefully) architects drawings of the craft that are 150 years old!! There is just so much detail on them that you cannot clearly recall everything months later. I made numerous dimensioned sketches (scrappy, but they have the info on them) but you cant measure everything.

​Several unforeseen items were discovered, and oddly the top deck was not continuous as assumed but on two levels, and of course there were some important things NOT on the diagrams. Several items we had on the "look up" list were seen but unexplained on the drawing. Its no secret it is a warship, and I know what guns were fitted but sadly these were not drawn on the profiles, the importance of this is that (for instance) 68pdr guns came in several styles and used several different mounts. The smaller guns did not appear to have racers like the main guns, despite there being gunports for them, something else to ponder.

​We chatted to the curator, and were discussing the new carriers when he said they had the original drawings of the never-built CVA1 design. My knees turned to jelly….oh for a quick peep!!!!. They have me on file now and further visits are for certain.

​We were very knowledgeable, and had clearly done our homework before the visit and this preparation always helps to establish a rapport with the museum staff, and always pays off (they sourced original pictures and so on while we were there). We were described as "model researchers", which was very nice, and literally true!!.

I may have to actually build a fantastic model this time, and not just a great one….

Ashley

Edited By ashley needham on 15/09/2017 17:24:29

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Yes, a great day out, even without the visit to the NMM it was good as we took the Thames cable car en route and came back on a Thames Cllpper which travels at 28 knots on the lower reaches of the river – wheeee…..!

Some photos of return journey below. Canary Wharf was framed by a rainbow. A pot of gold at each end and a shedload in between.

First pic is the Brass Foundry at Woolwich Arsenal which hosts the NMM plans.

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Very nice set of photos, Colin and Ashley

Especially, Canary Wharf with the Rainbow!

HMS Belfast looks magnificent and awesome, as usual

Now, Ashley………What are you up to?………An Email would do nicely?

I can`t imagine what it can be?

Bob

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Very sorry Bob, I thought I had divulged the secret….email sent!!

​There was a feature on the boat, an biggish alteration which I will be leaving off, as I could see that on a model it would not make sense. The actual mod was drawn on, in green ink, but there was no detail of the supports or equipment fitted to this mod. I would be wildly guessing, so it will be left off. For the dateline, it was not fitted "as built" so can be selectively left off.

​The NMM had original pictures of the vessel, but these were to be honest not much more use than the ones available on T`internet.

Ashley

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Charging batts. Tomorrow I think…. the SansP, project H, Sunderland and an LCM.

​Have identified another project to put on the list, an up scaled toy. I can not afford an original, they command silly prices, but there are loads of pictures on line and that`s all I need. I am envisaging a similar hull building technique to project W, and using a similar propulsion system, as versions of this toy are unconventionally propelled. However, for the future.

Ashley

C U ALL there. Its a nice pond..free parking 30 yards away… why are there not more boaters there eh ????

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Ashley

It looks like you had a lovely class outing with Sir but I think that all of this special attention, like escorted access to the inner sanctum of NMM, might just go to your head.

Is there any chance of going back and doing a James Bond to capture a set of CVA1 drawings?

I am currently in my nuclear bunker (cupboard under the stairs) waiting for today's promised end of the world.

Paul

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Ashley doesn't need CVA 01 just at the moment – he has a wonderful project to be getting on with as a result of our visit!

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

What is CVA 01?

I hate abbreviations!

Bob

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

Posted by Bob Abell on 23/09/2017 23:36:42:

What is CVA 01?

I hate abbreviations!

Bob

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/history/cva-01-hms-queen-elizabeth.htm

Google can be amazing for the curious, can be very good at figuring out an unknown TLA.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Many thanks, Malcolm

An aircraft carrier indeed

Bob

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