Thames Sailing Barge Stuff

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Edited By tomarack on 20/03/2021 14:23:39

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Vangs rig for RC,I use the first design (the sheets are divided behind the servo like  Y , at the top of the sprite is a pulley or wire eye)

 

Edited By tomarack on 20/03/2021 19:38:27

Edited By tomarack on 20/03/2021 19:43:53

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi John ,

I response to you last PM , I think you'll find these shots useful , the brass pin through the base of the topmast allows the rig to be lowered for transporting the barge

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 22/03/2021 10:16:25

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi gents,

Here are links to photos of my models of Thames sailing barges . I think it's especially for John to see how I progress built both models, as well as the internal arrangement of the receiver, servo and motor.

https://tomarack.rajce.idnes.cz/TSB_Capricorn/

https://tomarack.rajce.idnes.cz/Dinghy_Capricorn/

https://tomarack.rajce.idnes.cz/Gusty_Cat/

I also have a lot of these photos on albums here, on Modelboats.

Tom

 

 

Edited By tomarack on 22/03/2021 17:13:21

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

Just let you know spring is here, tonight we were lucky enough to see Thames sailing barge Will of Maldon motor into the Swale at Queenborough and moor on the deep water pontoon. Originally built for FT Everard of Greenhithe in 1925 as Will Everard, this barge has a fascinating history, and with "Dead Mans Island" in the background made a lovely sight

Regards Ray

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Nice photo Ray.

Chris

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Chris,

Mobile phones are great for those moments when you say ###### I wish I had my camera

Planning ahead you must be contemplating the final frontier of building a Thames barge ?? I know Tim has made a start on one , It's sure to be fast with all those IOM refinements added

I have a set of sails to sew for Portlight soon.

Regards Ray

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

What a great atmospheric shot Ray.

Eddie.

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Another compliment for the photo.

Ray Is correct. I have just started build a Thames Barge from the drawings of Veronica that he kindly gave me. These were the pre-corrected drawings where a couple of the midship section frames were way off but Ray had dealt with that along with drawing in the tabs to build the hull upside down from a common datum.

Actually I am building a tribute barge called Kimberley. When I ran a small boatyard back in the 80s Kimberley was moored alongside one of the old Itchen chain ferries that we converted into a workshop. It was remarkable in that it was the largest boat in the yard, I went onboard frequently to check and to pump it out and although old and already starting to fall apart quicker than it was being put together, it was owned by an early adopter who had one of the first and huge Vodafones which was basically an ordinary phone stuck on top of a car battery. He had big plans for the boat but sadly it never worked out. Not really surprising given the huge costs of properly restoring and maintaining a Thames Barge.

Some short time previously I had my own brief romance with a barge. My then wife and I decided that we should live on a boat. It doesn't take long to find a range of options and we spotted an old ammunition barge in an estate agent's advert which led to us trekking through the marshes on the Bursledon side of the Hamble River to find Barge Tim. Of course this was seen as instant karma so we triumphed over the rickety walkway to get onboard. The barge was high up in the creek and from the tide marks on the hull it looked like it only floated at high spring tides. Down below it was full of character, and heavily laced with that distinct aroma that tells you, you are on a wooden boat. It was dirt cheap which on its own should have been a sufficient warming sign but gripped with enthusiasm that only seemed to reinforce the karma. It was only when we saw that there were some tide marks inside the boat that we clicked out of our dream state. Be warned. That was a close shave. In the end we went to Holland and bought a steel Dutch barge which turned out to be a great success but that's another story.

Kimberley was built in 1900 by John & Herbert Cann, Harwich. The boat was owned by Fison so would have been engaged principally in the transport of fertiliser. The other end of her life was with Mr Mobile Phone man who took her to the Hamble where she exists as a wreck. If you follow this link there is some interesting stuff about the boat from an archaeological viewpoint. Scroll through to page 41 although the whole paper is a good read.

I have done my own research on the boat and found two photos that I think are of Kimberley. This is one of them.

Tim R

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hello Chris.

Is it true you are building a TSB? That would be a good one to follow.

Tim R

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Hi Tim

Don't believe everything that Ray says!

Still got some Fairey itches to scratch first!

And summers coming, so motorbiking and soft top weather!

Chris

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Been doing a bit of barge building but first of all a good look at the drawings and there are lots of them with some great detail. There has been lots of barge stuff here so this is not a complete blog but just highlights some of the changes I made and some of the tricky bits.

First up I wanted to replicate the keel system that I used for Galileo including the lead bulb because I already have the mould. The lead however is at the light end of the range compared with the notes on the drawing which is OK as long as the draft is a bit deeper. I sail in the harbour so a bit of extra draft is not a problem. The keel options on the drawing are a bit of a fat section for my liking but with the single bolt system for fixing I can see why.

The first job was to draw the existing fin and bulb on the profile, the red lines and calculate the Centre of Lateral Resistance (CLR). This is quite easy with simple geometry and is a line passing through the centroid. I have marked this line in blue. Obviously my new keel profile should have the same CLR or I will be changing the characteristics of the designed balance. For the purpose of this exercise I have ignored the CLR of the bulb on the basis that the difference should be marginal.

The new fin is drawn in green and is much higher aspect ratio and will bring the draft to approximately 300mm.

The high aspect ratio will be more susceptible to stalling if I get stuck in irons but overall it will be significantly more efficient and has about 70% less wetted surface area than the original which may be cutting the side area a bit fine but we will see.

This is the fin blank made from high tensile aluminium at 6mm thick. When faired it will be about 8mm and the tapered section fits into a slot in the hull. The taper is a non-locking angle but when the retaining bolt is tight, the keel will be well supported and very secure.

I have now superimposed a template of Galileo's bulb. With the front of the bulb lined up with the leading edge of the new fin there is only a 5mm shift of centre of gravity of the ballast which given the length of the hull and the displacement is insignificant. I was expecting this to be close but 5mm was a very happy accident.

Tim R

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Tim,

Glad to see your taking barge keel design so seriously for your new Kimberly, I think a few AMBO folk from the Facebook group will be looking in for hints & tips, as per the opening photo on this thread, I have both options for my Veronica, I use the winged keel the most as it makes the barge easier to lift out of the water, with the deeper keel we have to use 2nr hightech lifting strops made of rope and copper pipe as they fill up with water and fall away from the hull upon launching, devilishly cuning

Regards Ray

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

I wouldn't expect anything less from Tim!

Chris

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Thanks Ray and Chris.

I know barges have a reputation for sliding around on flat mud so you have to take care mooring alongside them unless of course you are in another barge.

I have a theory (totally un-proven) that the leeboards provide some resistance to leeway (lift) but the bulk of the resistance comes from the chines. You only have to heel slightly and all of a sudden you have a huge long keel as the chine digs in. My much slimmed down keel is still hugely bigger than the amount of leeboard that sticks out below the chine and that is the only bit that is doing any extra work other than the hull?????

Tim R

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Tim,

I have tested (unintentionally) on the first voyage with my Capricorn model) that the leeboards on the model have virtually no effect on the model's drift.the model was practically uncontrollable (fortunately I have an electric motor in the model)

As you mention chines, the models have a really small draft, and there are very few cases where they sail with a greater incline.

My friend Kim Holland once wrote to me that in the last AMBO races (about 2 years ago) there was also a model without a fin. In any case, he could not match the models with the fin. He also wrote that if this trend persists and there are more models without a keel, then a new class should be considered.

It seems to me that your fin keel is something in between.
The fact is that Kim Holland has a similar narrow keel with the lightest lead bulb on her Lady Daphne model.
After all … it's your choice

Greeetings Tom

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Tim,

I

Edited By tomarack on 12/05/2021 17:51:37

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Tom,

I think it maybe slightly longer ago that Kim took part in racing ! I've been racing for 5 years with the now de-funct AMBO race circuit and never seen him although he used to support the northern boat show at Warwick with his rope making machine and sail making etc.

Tim is right about the hull sides digging in a blow to give lateral resistance, if your side decks are not awash your not trying hard enough (Hobie cats sail on the same principle no keel)

There is a gentleman from Cornwall who has raced at the AMBO finals a couple of years ago with radio operated steel leeboards, his model was stable on a run and a broad reach but wouldn't point anywhere as near the wind as us with fin/bulb keels or winged keel in my case.

I'm afraid the chances of racing against any size of fleet are diminishing every year as competitors stop travelling or as Richard Chesney and Dave Watts both have sight problems

I hope things may improve in 2022 as I know of quite a few new build barges are in the pipeline around the country & Mallorca

Regards Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 12/05/2021 19:39:16

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Ray,

Maybe I'm wrong, the results on the water will be decisive. It is a pity that the number of active modelers is decreasing .. it is similar in our country as well.
It is also a pity that Marine Modeling International has stopped publishing. But what I miss the most is the> modelbarge .info <website run by Richard Chesney. Many interesting posts and photos have been lost (many of them also from Kim Holland). The AMBO link on FB is a replacement, it works in terms of posts almost immediately, but it is more or less a problem with older posts. On the other hand, a number of new modellers can be seen, which can be gratifying. Unfortunately, the number of older modelers is declining..
Many new modelers are bothered by the great ignorance of the models they are starting to build. Well … at least they're not afraid to ask …

That is why I am happy to return to these pages here, and I can easily find a topic that we solved together..

Greetings

Tom

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Thoughts on the centreline keel now.

This is the Veronica version that has two balsa strips either side to land the planks on. I suppose it is balsa to take pins. This would have a single 6mm hole going through to take the keel but mine is having a 6mm slot so losing a considerable amount of material.

The solution for me is to make the keelson the same width as the original including the balsa and to fill in the corners. This is closer to the arrangement of the keelson on the real thing. The lower section (false keel) is a separate piece of wood and makes up the thickness of planking which will be balsa first and then a second layer of mahogany planking following as much as possible the planking regime of the real thing. The keelson and false keel are mahogany which having all its grain going longitudinally, is stronger than a plywood alternative. You can now see that the fin keel will be well supported where it exits the hull because there is much more material and also sufficient width when later I have to fix the sides of the keel box.

I know I won't be able to stick pins into the mahogany but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Here are the two parts of the keel. I don't want to stick them together yet and I will explain later. I do want then to stay in exactly the right place when I cut the slot so the two are dowelled so I can split them at will.

I do have a mill attachment on my lathe but it is a pain to set up for small jobs. The easiest way was to set the keels on a set of cross slides and then chain drill the slots. I would be very unfair on the little bench drill's spindle to mill the slot in mahogany.

Lots of holes later and as many intermediate passes and I have a slot that is truly vertical and also parallel to the keel. The slot is much longer than the chord of the fin but that allows me to adjust the position as Ray warned me balance was a problem with the Big Rig (it is big).

These are the first bits of the kit of parts I am making. Nothing glued just yet,

Tim R

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

I don't keep 1/4" or 6mm ply other than just a few offcuts so Kimberley's frames are cut from 3mm Liteply. Litelply as we all know is rarely very flat but that is quite easy to solve by jigging during assembly. 3mm doesn't give a huge amount of material for the planks to stick to but most of the tension will be at the plank ends at the bow and stern. The ply will take pins which is an advantage and putting the bevels on is a doddle compared with doing the same at 1/4" . It is also much easier to cut and above all I have plenty!

My usual method is to cut out the paper sections direct from the plan and then photo copy them. I then have the originals just in case and if everything is copied then any slight reduction or enlargement will be consistent and will not matter.

The section templates are stuck to the ply using Pritt Stick. I tried branded copies but they never worked quite so well and would leave residues whatever I tried.

Using Ray's method of building upside down on sacrificial "legs" the frame were cut out and the edges sanded back to the line. The centre-pop marks were an idea to give me a reference when the paper is removed but as you can see they slipped a bit and it was easier and more accurate to put a small starter cut either side to pick up on later. I shall follow those cuts when the hull is removed from the biding board.

With the genuine Pritt Stick I find that is the paper is moistened with clean water and a brush it will release from the wood with the glue coming away on the paper. Not enough water or time to soak into the ply and distort it. Sometimes there are a few remnants like in the photo and these sand off easily.

Frames more or less ready and put to one side for the "kit"

Tim R

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Good stuff Tim. I always enjoy seeing how you go about things.

I must get myself a bench drill at some point.

Chris

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi.Chris,Tim, I agree Tim always brings engineering skills and techniques into his builds, and I always follow his builds with interest.

I now have three drill presses, four if you count the Proxon mini mill, the 3 morse taper floor standing is from my steam engine building time, but I’d still gets used, I recently acquired a bench mounted drill for my new shed along with an Axminster mini drill and the Proxon that I find invaluable for drilling holes in the IOM masts and booms when you need straight lines of holes spaced at regular intervals.

Regards.

Eddie.

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Thank you Chris and Eddie

My Proxxon mini drill was my first significant purchase when I got back into modelling. It will take a 1/4" which is fine in wood but even at the slowest speed it is far to fast for drilling metal. I can just about manage 4mm. Now I am building more boats than aircraft I should probably look out for a less dainty device. I wouldn't be without it though.

Here is my Proxxon cross slide mounted on the drill doing exactly what Eddie describes. These are at 5mm intervals dialled in on the handwheel.

To make this lines of holes in an IOM jib boom

Tim R

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